northern shaolin vs wushu

[jun_erh]

I just wanted to make a point about something I've been seeing in print lately. Basically it implies that southern style is "pure" kung fu and northern and wushu are the same thing. That's wrong. (modern Wushu/ longfist) may be more overtly influenced by northern type techniques, but n shaolin isn't just flash. Southern style can be "corrupted" too. It manifests itself in stuff like Karate ie: competition friendly point fighting.

[David Jamieson]

modern wu shu draws heavily from the northern shaolin styles and has only recently included southern style flavours into it.

however, they are not by any stretch "the same".

cheers

[buddhapalm]

Dear Jun,
Are you by any chance from Canada ?

Related to Master Ma ?

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[Brad]

but n shaolin isn't just flash
Modern wushu isn't just "flash" either... at least it's not supposed to be ;-) Of course they're not supposed to be the same thing either. The one big similarity between the two is that Northern Shaolin(the system) was put together by a comitee of people in the 20th century.
I had a very confusing argument with someone on dragonslist about modern wushu. Someone asked a question about modern wushu asking if it can be used in self defence, if we knew anyone who can teach it that way, and if we knew anyone who's used it for self defence. I said yes to all three accounts, because, well, it's the truth :D Then this other guy jumps in saying I must mean another modern wushu :confused: I eventually figured out he was talking about northern shaolin, and didn't seem to want to accept the fact that modern wushu(changquan specifically) was what I had taken and not northern shaolin. The point is, I'd never heard of northern shaolin called modern wushu up until this point. This guy made it sound like where he comes from(Germany, I think) modern wushu is what everyone calls Norther Shaolin. It must be very confusing over there, lol.

[NorthernShaolin]

Brad,

'The one big similarity between the two is that Northern Shaolin(the system) was put together by a comitee of people in the 20th century.'


Are you sure about your statement or did you mean to state something else?
:confused:

[shaolin kungfu]

'The one big similarity between the two is that Northern Shaolin(the system) was put together by a comitee of people in the 20th century.'

:confused: :confused: :confused:

isn't shaolin 1500 yrs. old?

[jun_erh]

BP-I'm not from Canada!!!!!!!!

[David Jamieson]

what's wrong with Canada?:p

cheers

[buddhapalm]

Oops,
Thought you may be someone else :-)

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[Brad]

Are you sure about your statement or did you mean to state something else?
I thought Northern Shaolin and Shaolin Longfist were both the same thing... put together by combining techniques from several different northern longfist systems to create a style called Northern Shaolin. Named Northern Shaolin to pay homage to the temple that they all originated from. Who knows, I may be as confused as that guy that was talking about me, lol. I'll go back and check my books and magizines to see where I got that from...
:-P

[ghthomason]

In the cold, mountainous regions of Northern China, Shaolin Kung Fu developed as a Long-Fist style, emphasizing kicks over hand techniques.

The Northen Shaolin Long Fist (Chang Chuan) style is comprised of techniques from several other systems. These include Cha Chuan (Cha-family style), Hua (flower) Chuan, China-style Chuan, Paochui (cannon) Chuan, Hong-family Chuan, Red-style Chuan, Shaolin Chuan, Fanzi (tumbling) Chuan, and Hua (Essence) Chuan.

PRC Long Fist is a set of Modern Wushu compulsories designed around these systems.

[Sho]

Just to point out; fanzi means roughly to rotate, tang means to tumble. Therefore, Fanziquan means Rotating Fist and Ditangquan is Ground Tumbling Fist.

[ghthomason]

I've always seen Fanzi as "Tumbling Boxing" or sometimes called Bashanfan "Eight-Flash Chuan"

I've never seen it called "Rotating Fist."

Interesting.

[norther practitioner]

Chang Chuan = Northern Long Fist, both contemporary and traditional. Both are based on the same styles as well (what ghthomason was saying).
Chang Chuan is a style, and a generalization as well.
I've always concidered Northern Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu just that, Northern Shaolin and Northern Long Fist Kung fu a more general term that can encompass Shaolin. So saying chang chuan is shaolin is not correct, but saying shaolin is chang chuan, is partially correct. Unless you are looking at Dr. Yang, Jwing-Mings books, this is how I look at it. He calls his chang chuan Northern Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu, or at least he did when he wrote those books on the topic.

Now as to Northern Shaolin being wushu....well some of the Shaolin critics say that all the "modern martial monks" do is wushu, which in some cases, maybe, however, I'd like to dispell that fact. There are still some really good things going on in and around Shaolin pertaining to "true" Shaolin kung fu (thats if a few people I know aren't lying to me about it :D ) .


But I'd like to kind of reiterate something.....
chang chuan, there are two types, the "modern wushu" and traditional.

[David Jamieson]

Northern Shaolin is generally known in martial arts circles as Bak Sil Lum or Bei Shaolin.

Literally "North Shaolin".

Go to the shaolin forum and type in bsl or north shaolin.

There is also Cha Chuan, one of the major families of Northern Chinese martial arts.

along with these two styles there are other main branches that I am not as familiar with (heck, I'm not even 100% familiar with these two :) )

anyway, isn't Chang Chuan a couple of different things?

I personally only hear about it in context to contemporary wushu.

cheers

[ghthomason]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe Bak Sil Lum and Bei Shaolin are specific refereces to Gan Fenchi's Northern Shaolin system, and not Northern Shaolin as a whole.

Bak Sil Lum, or Bei Shaolin style, is attributed to Gan Fenchi, a layman disciple of the Shaolin Monk Chao Yaun (secular name Zhu Fu), both of whom lived under the reign of Emperor Yong Zheng (1723-1735). It is recognized by the Shaolin Temple as an authentic Shaolin school, but it is no longer practiced at the Temple itself.

However, Northen Shaolin is also used to describe arts developed in the North, particulary Long-Fist styles.

[David Jamieson]

nope, you're not wrong, bak sil lum and bei shaolin are indeed specific style references.

I would like to know what the foundation of Chang Chuan is though.

cheers

[ghthomason]

Chang Quan can be traced back to Song Taizu, the first emperor of the northern Song dynasty (960-976). Thirty-two long fist forms were recorded from that period. It later rose in popularity again during the period of the Ming dynasty.

This style emphasizes the use of speed to defeat an adversary and also concentrates on the concept of Yang overcoming Ying. Accordingly, these are high-energy forms with fast actions.

In 1949, elements of this style and the other major northern styles of Cha, Hua, Hua(the other Chinese character), Pao and Shaolin were combined to create the seven standard routines for wushu competition

[norther practitioner]

Nanjing Central Guoshu Guan also had produced a "chang chuan" that is practiced by a few people, which is definitely traditional. That happend in the 1920s I believe.

[norther practitioner]

Nanjing Central Guoshu Guan also had produced a "chang chuan" that is practiced by a few people, which is definitely traditional. That happend in the 1920s I believe.

[Brad]

I've always seen Fanzi as "Tumbling Boxing" or sometimes called Bashanfan "Eight-Flash Chuan"
Maybe tumbling boxing is just something english speakers call it because of the way strikes "tumble" over each other? I've also heard people call it "lightning fist" in English. It's a cool style to watch :cool:

[Sho]

I think Fanziquan shouldn't be related to tumbling in any ways, because Ditangquan (Ground Tumbling Fist) is a form where the practitioner actually tumbles on the ground.

[Ben Gash]

OK, where do we start here. Everyone seems to be confusing each other.
Changquan/Chang Chuan/Longfist: "extended boxing method"
A fighting principle that utilises full extention of the technique to deliver power from the waist. Usually typified by deep stances. Changquan is synonymous with the martial arts of Northern China, the vast majority of which are longfist styles e.g. Hongquan, Zhaquan, Taizhuquan, Lohanquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang, Taijiquan, Yingjow pai, Tonglongquan etc
However, Southern styles such as Fut Gar and Choy Li Fut are also longfist.
Wushu/compulsory/competition Changquan: The most popular of the sport wushu formats due to its expansive movements and exciting jumps.
Northern Shaolin: Often a generic term for northern external styles, however also the name of a specific system popularised by Kou Yu Cheong and his students. In Cantonese Northern Shaolin is translated as Bak Sil Lum, although as a generic term Bak Pai is often used. In Mandarin it becomes Bei Shaolin.
Songshan Shaolin/ Temple Shaolin/Shaolin Wushu: The Martial arts practiced at the Songshan Shaolin temple. Debate still rages as to the authenticity of these forms. According to the official line monks trained in secret after the cultural revolution and ban on martial arts. However the Chinese government tends to be quite harsh on people who disobey it. The number of Students has risen dramatically from the 8 who were there during the 1983 wushu survey. They claim unbroken lineage, however they are known to have an R+D department who troll through old texts recovering forms. Some feel that these forms have been "jazzed up" to make them more "fitting" for the legendary Shaolin monks. What they do is very different from sport wushu, but some of the moves are iffy.

[buddhapalm]

Fanziquan
(rotating fist)

Other names - "fanzi", "fanquan"; the first name - "bashanfan" (''8 rotating evasions'). It is short-range style.

Fanziquan is very old style. Qi Jiguang's treatise "Jiziao xinshu" ("New book of records about achievements") says: "8 rotating evasions and 12 short - it is skill of skill". General Qi included in his 32 methods such fanziquan methods as "dantoupao" ("shoot above the head"), "aoluanzhou" ("other-side elbow of Luan bird"), "shunluanzhou" ("same-side elbow og Luan bird"), "qigushi" ("flag-drum position").

Modern fanziquan begin from the Duan family from Nortern Bulan village of Gaoyang county of Hebei province. During the years of reign under the motto "Daoguang" there were five brothers of "Dian" generation, all of them were very good fighters. They asked Han Luma to be their teacher, and studied fanzi and chuojiao. Xu Zhaoxiong from North-Eaststudied fanzi and chuojiao from Duan family and transferred the art to He Hexiang and Hu Fengsan from Shenyang. Besides them, Cheng Qingchun from Yantai also was skilled in fanzi and chuojiao, he also trained "9 hands of praying mantis"; it is said that he was Xu Zhaoxiong's student.

Fanziquan of Gansu and Shanxi provinces origins from Ma Fengtu. During the first years of Chinese republic Ma Fengtu and his brother Ma Yingtu lived in Shenyang during 7 years. Ma brothers studied from He, Hu and Cheng fanziquan and chuojiao, He Hu and Cheng studied from Ma brothers tongbei pigua quan. Ma Fengtu transferred chuojiao and fanziquan to the North-West, and those, who study fanziquan in Shenyang now, also study piguaquan.

Fanziquan - it is quick rotation, from the left and from the right, from the top and from the bottom. It is hard and soft, real movements and false movements. It is divided on eight methods, each of them is divided on eight hands, so we have 64 hands.

During fanziquan training it is necessary to train tiao (lifting) and mo (brushing), lifting during advancing and brusing during retreating. "Strike comes from the above - use tiao, strikes comes from the below - use mo". Tiao - it is flapping by both arms simultaniously forward on the vertical circle. Mo - it is movement by both arms simultaniously down to the abdomen on the vertical circle. Sense of eight methods - different movements on various circles.

Main fist set is lizhongfan ("rotation similar to the rotation of standing pillar"). Other sets: cuibafan ("concentrated 8 rotations"), jianzhongfan ("rotation, strenghtened the center"), qinshoufan ("rotation of grasping hand"), lushoufan ("rotation of stealing hand"). Specific fanziquan's weapon includes: babu lianhuan jinshoudao ("8 steps of continuous movements of broadsword of attacking hands"), mianzhandao ("broadsword of continuous war").

Two branches, known today on the North-East and on the North-West of China, are similar, but have some difference in methods of using the power, outer appearenceand schemes of sets. North-West branch has tongbei influence in the methods of using power, force is thrown from the waist, quickly and simultaniously. North-East branch prefer promptness, strong lifting and strong lowering. Besides them, in Hebei province and Beijing-Tianjin region there exist liushoufan (rotation of six hands), yanqing fanzi (fanzi of Yan Qing), yingzhao fan (rotation of eagle's claw), cunfanzi (1-inch fanzi), cuifanzi (concentrated fanzi).


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[buddhapalm]

Fanzi Quan or tumbling Chuan is also known as Bashanfan (eight-flash Chuan). It is so called because of its eight major flashing movements, which are executed as fast as lightning and thunderclaps. The movements in tumbling Chuan are varied and continuous.

The Fanzi Quan ballad says: "Wu Mu has passed down the Fanzi Quan which has mystery in its straightforward movements." Wu Mu is the other name for Yue Fei, a famous general of the Southern Song Dynasty. Some people have taken this to mean that Fanzi Quan was created by Yue Fei, but no historical record has verified this.

Earlier mentions of Fanzi Quan appeared in A New Essay on Wushu Arts written by anti-Japanese general Qi Jiguang of the Ming Dynasty. In Volume XTV of Quan Jing (Chuan Text), it says: "Throughout the history of fist fights, there have been the 32-form Chang Quan of Emperor Taizu of the Song Dynasty, Liubu Quan (six-step Chuan), Hou Quan (monkey-imitating Chuan), E'quan Chuan, etc. Though their names are different, the routines are roughly the same. As for today's 72-move Wen-family Chuan, 36-move locking fist fight, 24-move reconnoitre Chuan, eight-flash Chuan and 12-move short style Chuan, they are among the best styles."

exactly tumbling Chuan of today. Bashanfan was the old name used in the Ming Dynasty. From Qi's account, it is evident that Bashanfan was already a comparatively complete and perfect style of fist fight in the Ming Dynasty. Fanzi Quan centers on the Bashanfan (eight-flash moves) while others are merely derivatives of this.

During the Qing Dynasty, Fanzi Quan was popular in north China, especially in Raoyang, Lixian and Gao-yang areas in Hebei Province. During the reigns of Qing emperors Xianfeng and Tongzhi (1851-1874), a recluse called Zhao Canyi lived at Raoyang in Hebei. Zhao was not only proficient at Fanzi Quan but was also well known for his master/ of Chuojiao Quan (feet-poking Chuan). He taught the Chuan arts to Duan and Wang families respectively. The brothers of Duan Zhixu and Duan Zhiyong learned Chuojiao while Wang Laozi and Wang Zhan'ao studied Fanzi Quan. Later on, the two families taught each other and exchanged their knowledge. Fanzi Quan stresses the use of hands, whereas Chuojiao emphasizes the use of feet. Modern Fanzi Quan experts often practise feet-poking skills as well.

Fanzi Quan spread far and wide after it was introduced into Hebei, developing many branch styles. The eagle-claw tumbling Chuan was evolved on the basis of a combination of the eagle-claw moving Chuan, eagle-claw running Chuan and tumbling Chuan. When hitting, the hand is in the form of clenched fist. When retrieving, it is in the form of an eagle claw. Fist jabbing can be as fast as the swing of a whip and as relentless as teeming rain. Another combination is Digong Quan (ground stroke Chuan) and Fanzi Quan tumbling Chuan, called Digong Fanzi Quan (ground stroke tumbling Chuan). It absorbs both the tumbling Chuan tricks of fastness and variation and the ground stroke Chuan moves of falling, pouncing, wrestling and leg locking. Because there are some feet-poking tricks in the ground stroke tumbling Chuan, it is also called by some the feet-poking tumbling Chuan. Other combinations include Shaolin tumbling Chuan, long-style tumbling Chuan, short-style tumbling Chuan, Yanqing-style tumbling Chuan and soft palming tumbling Chuan. (see picture)

Contemporary Fanzi Quan master Yu Boqian not only inherited the tumbling techniques from his predecessors but also improved it by programming two new routines of wave-poking tumbling Chuan and back-rolling tumbling Chuan.

Fanzi Quan stresses the combination of external and internal strengths and energies. Exercises involving the circulation of air flows inside the body are carried through the water conduit, blood vessels and network of sinews which Chinese medicine believes exist in human bodies. These three networks and channels merge under the guidance of the mind. Tumbling boxers take root in their legs while emphasizing hand tricks and movements. The tumbling exercises are divided into two classes of major moves and minor moves. The major moves include jabbing, axing, elbowing, jamming, wrestling, rubbing and holding. The minor moves are rolling, lifting, turning, penetrating, slipping, hammering, provoking and flicking. In tumbling Chuan, the routine is made rhythmic by slow and fast movements, continuous and intermittent actions. Tumbling boxers prefer to fight in a straightforward way. They change freely from hardness to softness and vice versa. When the hand hits out, the foot follows with a quick step. The body clutches together while moving around fast. The fist never hits out aimlessly nor does the hand retreat without trying to attack on its way back.
The routine of tumbling Chuan is short and terse. Its movements are agile and quick and arranged in compact patterns. While practising, the footwork is steady, posture upright and square, and actions are versatile. One moment the two fists hit straight and the next they are rounded for their attacks. Various tricks and moves are like whirl-winds and the entire routine is completed as if in one breath. The fist hits of tumbling Chuan are described "as dense as rain drops and as fast as a burn-ing string of small firecrackers." The tumbling Chuan stresses crisp, fast, hard and resilient movements

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[richard sloan]

...we have a Changquan form which Shi Yan Ming teaches, and what follows is a description of it from a 10 yr Anniversary program:

Changquan (Long Fist)

This form is typically paired with Duanquan (Short Fist.) The two forms are usually described as "Long Fist not long, Short Fist not short." Signifying the complete form of each. After the first emperor of the Song Dynasty studied Changquan at Shaolin Temple for three years, he was able to defeat the last emperor of the Tang Dynasty. The essense of Changquan is described in a poem. The most important rule when practicing Changquan is to move with detective and undetectable forms: "fast and slow rhythms have to be followed clearly; when ducking, the body moves like a scared cat, when attacking, the body moves like a reigning tiger. Move like a dragon and attack like lightning." The move Liao Yin Jie Yi Ba comes from Xin Yi Ba and involves three attacks and one block. The aggressiveness and unpredictability of this move follows all other moves of Xin Yi Ba. Another move Yaoshan (Rocking the Mountain) uses the whole body strength on the arms to strike powerfully.

As for Modern Chang Quan: a modern Wu Shu form that is a compulsory form learned by all modern Wu Shu practitioners.

In regards to Ditangquan:
(Ground Fighting Fist)
To practice Ditangquan one must learn how to fall, roll, and jump. There are four forms of jumping: cuan, bong, tiao, and yue. Cuan is fast and agile jumping that resembles a monkey; bong is a higher jump resembling a frog leap; tiao is a pouncing action like a tiger's; yue is a jump like a twisting fish. There are also various forms of falls: die, pu, qun, fan. Die has the essence of "Drunken Fist" in terms of appearing "half drunk, half awake" in order to make unpredictable moves to confuse the opponent. Pu is a fall that resembles the pounce of a hungry tiger. Qun looks like a real fall that can distract the opponent and attack unexpectedly. Fan can be used for defense or offense.

[Brad]

As for Modern Chang Quan: a modern Wu Shu form that is a compulsory form learned by all modern Wu Shu practitioners.
The compulsory form isn't required for modern wushu unless you plan on competing in the world championships. It's a wierd form even from modern Chang Quan perspective if you ask me :P