to snap or not to snap

[byond1]

hi guys and gals!!
ive been learning about yks and koloo wc and have been incorporating(imo) some very important things into my training....i cant discus the yks and koloo because i was asked not to.....but in the context of yip man wc......
who does or doesnt ...and why?...snap into your movments....in snt, some yip man family (samuel kwok for example) from the fook..huen with a downward snap (por jung) into the wu....others maintain the wrist at the same point from fook to wu with no snap.......i was curious about all the various yip man family out there...there is so much internal variation in our family....what does lo man kam do? wang kiu? wsl? ho kam ming? yip chun? yip ching? lok yiu? deuncan leung? or any of the other direct yip man students
from my understanding leung sheung did not snap into his movements . chu shong tin does not snap. moy yat did not snap
oops ,..library closes in 5 minutes.......more monday
brian

[Mckind13]

Why post if you cannot discuss?

Who are you learning YKS Gu Lao from?

What are your thoughts on snapping?

What other family of WCK are you incorporating these other two into?

Mail me off list if you want.

David McKinnon

[EnterTheWhip]

What exactly is snapping?

[t_niehoff]

beyond1 wrote:

ive been learning about yks and koloo wc and have been incorporating(imo) some very important things into my training....

Really? Perhaps the question you should be asking yourself is why you didn't have these "very important things" in the first place (if they are indeed "very important things")? From my perspective, WCK is WCK; lineage is a trap. Figure out for yourself how to make the tools functional; figure out for yourself the advantages and disadvantages of "snapping", the when, the where, the why. If you just take someone's word for it, whether TST or LMK or HKM you've fallen into the trap. TN

Terence

[Savi]

Brian,

From my understanding:

Snap; as in a sudden/spontaneous explosion of focused energy. Is this what you mean?

To understand when to "snap" a movement, you would have to first understand the nature of the technique you are expressing. A Tan Sao is light, yet defiantly strong. A Jahm (chopping) Sao, a Pak (slapping) Sao, a Biu (piercing) Sao... realize that all techniques come from total body incorporation (Body Unity), so your question might have to be more specific as to what is 'snapping'. An elbow, a wrist? And, what technique?

When striking, a "snap" should be delivered from the horse through the point you are striking from (ie. knuckles). When redirecting an attack, you MAY only need to "snap" from the waist - or maybe even the entire horse (ie. a Tan Sao [light] with the horse shooting lateral [strong] from an attack). In other words, explosive footwork.

And what if you strike, redirect, and kick all at the same time (ie. Pak Sao, Punch, and Hitting Kick all at once)? We would have to define the natures of the involved technique(s) in the upper and lower regions of the body to have an understandable answer to your question.

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How Wing Chun is approached in our school curriculum, is in this manner (generally speaking):

1. basic details about the technique, and it's nature, application. (demonstrate to student)

2. familiarize yourself with the basic motions of intended techniques (drilling the motions; physical)

3. Further understanding of the scientific details of the techniques, it's nature, and all principles and concepts involved (technical knowledge, mental internalization)

4. identify and develop the proper attributes for intended techniques (like when, how, why, what, where to 'snap'); combining steps 2, 3, and 4.

5. drill the application, and have someone challenge your applications until you build up to the proper degree of competence.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Your question falls under step 4 in the above process. If you *also* follow this process (you might not), you should be able to see where your undestanding might need further refining.

Sincerely,
-Savi.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
What exactly is snapping? It's what comes before the "Crackle" and "Pop" in Rice Krispies.

[yuanfen]

lineage is a trap. Figure out for yourself how to make the tools functional; figure out for yourself the advantages and disadvantages of "snapping", the when, the where, the why. If you just take someone's word for it, whether TST or LMK or HKM you've fallen into the trap. TN

Terence
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lineage can be a trap but need not be. Ultimately everyone have to feel comfortable in their own understanding of wing chun. In real skill work- accumulated knowledge is a real resource for learning and has its advantages.Even though concepts are very important in wing chun- being cerebral is not enough either.

On "snapping"- if it is a jerky motion- it is not the best of ideas.
But completion of the motion is. I see lots of people either not completing their motions or being jerky in doing so.

Joy C.

[[Censored]]

If I understand what you mean by "snap", it is that the motion comes to an abrupt end, and tension increases at that moment. The snap looks powerful, and the snap feels powerful, so how could it be wrong? ;)

LOL, increase power by practicing no-power? Sounds like an old Chinese fairytale. :D

[yuanfen]

Censored sez:LOL, increase power by practicing no-power? Sounds like an old Chinese fairytale.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are working on power. In good wing chun the best kind of power comes from developing the joints. Snapping only focuses on power on one small part of the motion.

Same as the punch- concentrating on power only at the end of the punch delays development of short explosive power along the way- wherever contact takes place.

Mastering a whole motion is the source of explosive power.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by [Censored]
If I understand what you mean by "snap", it is that the motion comes to an abrupt end, and tension increases at that moment. The snap looks powerful, and the snap feels powerful, so how could it be wrong? ;)

LOL, increase power by practicing no-power? Sounds like an old Chinese fairytale. :D
Hi [Censored]

Good points. :D

Feeling powerful is the best clue you are not.

Funny how true the old fairytales can be. :D

Regards,

[byond1]

hi everyone...
thanks for the few who actually posted on what my post was....others...why waste your time and my time....
mckind--i keep my promises to people....the gentlemen who have eduacated my in the basic ideas in the yks and koloo systems asked me to keep the info private....no more , no less...im a man of my word.... but...some of the ideas can be found in certain yip man wing chun....which of cource i can discuss...which is what im trying to do here....im curious what differant yip man students do....ive encountered alot of wc but not all wc...and i like to learn...and i like wc history and comparing who does what ..its my hobby...wck is my life and passion..big differance...


terence---the only trap ive fallen into is trying to actually have a "real", civil discusion on wing chun...what was i thinking


savi----i agree totaly...body unity is of extreme inportance and the snap i refer to needs to be applied from the horse to the point your striking from...by snap im refering to inch ging...this can be used and incorporated in a variety of ways with every wc motion...more tomorow..


matirx--?preocupied with "crack"??


yuanfen---mastering the whole motion is the source of exploosive power...i agree but that is the point ...many wc people are missing parts of the whole......many wc practioners have weak wrists...

so the whole thing i was looking for was
a)i was hoping to learn /compare/contrast what various yip man students teach on this ...and b) to simply hear others opinions and share my own in hopes of 1)my personel growth and 2) help someone elses growth.....perhaps this is to much to ask of the community on kfo

[Grendel]

Originally posted by byond1
many wc people are missing parts of the whole......many wc practioners have weak wrists...

Hi Byond1,

Weak wristed, are we? Are you impugning the manhood of Wing Chun practitioners? :p

If one is practicing the Sil Nim Tao (SNT) correctly, then one is strengthening the wrist significantly, primarily through huen sao.

Thick wrist development is one of the few outward signs of Wing Chun practice. Typically, old-style TCMA kung fu experts have a lot of wrist development--big, meaty forearms with thicker than normal wrists.

Regards,

[[Censored]]

the snap i refer to needs to be applied from the horse to the point your striking from...by snap im refering to inch ging

Inch jing? Why didn't you say so originally? "Jerky", but in a skillful way, yes?

Typically, old-style TCMA kung fu experts have a lot of wrist development--big, meaty forearms with thicker than normal wrists.

Including Ng Mui? ;)

[Grendel]

Originally posted by [Censored]

[b]Typically, old-style TCMA kung fu experts have a lot of wrist development--big, meaty forearms with thicker than normal wrists.

Including Ng Mui? ;)

Yes. :p Especially her. :D Wing Chun practitioners tend to get Popeye-like forearms. Just because a woman can do it, doesn't mean that they don't have to work hard.

You should see KJ. She can crush a brick in one hand. :p

Regards,

[[Censored]]

Yes, I've heard KJ is as strong as an ox, and twice as lovely. :)

Seriously though, I never noticed that WC produces particularly large forearms. At least not compared to Karate and Aikido. Tough and strong, but not large.

I don't know how or if this is relevant to inch jing, but when I think of what makes Wing Chun unique, I don't think "smooth movement and soft power". I think "strong will and cold heart". Why else did we got stuck with a snake and a spindly bird? :p

[S.Teebas]

What is the snap for? What feed the power of the snap. Good thought-provoking points from Cencored, and understanding the fact that snap is a moment of "powerful' feeling..is this as good as:
yuanfen says:
Mastering a whole motion is the source of explosive power.

Power all the way is better than power somtimes. Concentration on power all the time means you dont have to think" I must be powerful now!" too much thinking, how automatic can this be?

Not too much to add, just think some great points so far in this thread. Lots to think about. :)

byond1 why do you think adding the snap is a good thing?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by [Censored]
Yes, I've heard KJ is as strong as an ox, and twice as lovely. :)

She is lovely, but tease her at your own peril. :eek:

Seriously though, I never noticed that WC produces particularly large forearms. At least not compared to Karate and Aikido. Tough and strong, but not large.

I am surprised. Just the daily relaxed practice of SNT should produce thicker wrists and forearms. If I were you, I would ask your teacher about this. The forearm development is important IMO.

I don't know how or if this is relevant to inch jing, but when I think of what makes Wing Chun unique, I don't think "smooth movement and soft power".
The relaxed power of good Wing Chun comes from good structure, body unity, and precision. Wing Chun practitioners develop power over time with diligent practice. It takes five to seven years or so from the beginning to have real nim lik.

I think "strong will and cold heart". Why else did we got stuck with a snake and a spindly bird? :p

Yeah, that would seem to apply. The herons and egrets hunting in my river out back of my homestead certainly seem to have those traits. It's probably no coincidence that I rarely spy a snake out there.

Regards,

[Matrix]

Originally posted by byond1
matirx--?preocupied with "crack"??Jeez, some people have no sense of humor. :rolleyes:
Like you said. Why waste your time?

Matrix

[byond1]

hi all!!
imo, the wc system, either transmited in the 3 forms/jong vrsion or the san sik....is a system of principles. however the information is organized , the information is not technique based..the info is various ging patterns. the 3 forms together teach the proper method of expressing vaious ging which can be applied to any situation....of cource we use the ging in a wc context. ging is a mechanical refinement in expressing power (yang)or absorbing(yin) power. joint and tendons as well as intent and chi are used in this, not muscle. which is why i believe wc comes from fukien white crane weng chun,,,white crane forms are sets of ging patterns....the wrist is a major joint for expressing many differant gings.....
in yip man wing chun the very important theory of "cleaving" is trained in the bj form...of cource it is introduced early on in snt..and is refined thorugh the progression in the later 2 forms..some more than others.....wc has the perfect balance of yin/yang.....the training can be seperated into the the yin nature or yang nature but can be combined as well...the "cleaving" has a more yang nature to it and is an aggresive method of taking the center while cuting into the opponents bridge.
grendel---sure huen sao is great for the wrists....of cource there are 3 main variations ....the yip man method(internal) which rotates inside to outside...or how most other wc families do it which rotates outwards...or the william cheung method (same direction as yip man)which is more of a lao sao...wrists leaves center..the wrist isnt isolated as well, as strength is not trained....but many wc practitioners spend no "kung" doing the ultra important conditioning methods through repitioning.....such as sup yee sao and huen sao
matrix--??where did your humor go?....hmmm and at least i can waste my own time instead of having someone else do it...
s.t---it is the other side of the coin....i believe it adds balance to ones skill......some ging must have wrist coordination in it for it to be properly released from the body(also passive, neutral yin ging like recieving and listening, touching and sticking ect).......my understanding is duen lik utilizes the wrists

[fgxpanzerz]

you're kidding me right?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by fgxpanzerz
you're kidding me right?
No kidding. So does proper chi sao. Don't expect it overnight, though. Ask your teacher if you're not sure.

Take a look at Eddie Chong's pictures on his website and note his forearm development. I'd say he looks like the good sterotype of traditional Chinese martial artist.

Regarding your subject line, it's tao, not "toa."

Regards,

[Geezer]

Grendel Wrote>
I am surprised. Just the daily relaxed practice of SNT should produce thicker wrists and forearms. If I were you, I would ask your teacher about this. The forearm development is important IMO.

http://www.wckfc.com/PhotoAlb/chisau.gif

[[Censored]]

Yeah, but you should have seen his arms BEFORE he started Wing Chun! :p

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Geezer
Grendel Wrote>


http://www.wckfc.com/PhotoAlb/chisau.gif
Hi Sheldon,

I don't have a ready photographic reference, but in his youth, I've heard that Yip Man was a pretty sturdy young man. Also, it's a relative thing. Thinner, smaller folks may not demonstrate this trait as well as a mesomorph body type, but they will see increased wrist thickness. Your mileage will vary. :D

Even with the list this slow, this will be my last reply to you. Go ask your teacher. :rolleyes: I don't know Garrett Gee, but he most likely will also exemplify this Wing Chun trait.

Regards,

[Geezer]

Grendel Wrote>
Even with the list this slow, this will be my last reply to you.

This will make "my" reply that much easier;)

Grendel Wrote>
Go ask your teacher.

Why you seem to be the authority on the subject:confused:

Grendel Wrote>
I don't know Garrett Gee, but he most likely will also exemplify this Wing Chun trait.

Just for the record, I don't know if you thought Garret Gee was my Sifu but he isn't, I'm just a fan of the VTM.;)

I'm not sure if you knew this but Eddie Chong trains in Yip Man, Pan Nam and Bak Mei, might be the combination perhaps that have created this thick forearm you're talking about:confused:

http://www.chongskungfu.com/index.html

And I'm not sure if you knew this but Garret Gee teaches Hung Fa Yi WCK, Tai Chi, Pa Kua and Shaolin Kung Fu, again it might be this combination that has created the thick forearm you talk about, I have seen pitures of him in Qigong KF Mag.

http://www.hungfayi.com/

Sheldon;)

[reneritchie]

Brian,

Curious as to what you were taught as YKS wrt snapping. Email me off-board if you prefer.

[byond1]

hi ren!!
the lost email i sent you last week was actually about it...lol....i wanted your opinion on the subject(historicaly and practicaly)...ive been practising the sup yee sao as well as the sae ying sao for a couple months and with carefull progression ive noticed some real development......i will email you again
brian