Wei Hsiaotang challenges his shrfu

[Tainan Mantis]

All comments welcome.
This is possible due to Dzuo Hsienfu, Wei Hsiaotang's long time student and most outspoken 8 Step Shrfu in Taiwan...

Jiang Hualong, famous master of Mei Hua Mantis, was friends with Ba Gua Chuen master Wang Dzongching and Hsing Yi and Tong Bei master Chen Deshan.

Together these three masters combined the best techniques of their respective styles to create new Mantis forms.
The basics of this new style had eight postures and eight moving steps so it was named Eight Step Praying Mantis.

Jiang Hualong taught this style to Feng Huanyi.

In 1917 Wei Jiyun, Wei Hsiaotang's father, invited 38 year old Master Feng to their home to teach a 16 year old Wei Yentong. Not till many years later would Wei Yentong change his name to Wei Hsiaotang.

The young Wei, already proficient in the Ditang school of boxing immediately invited Master Feng to cross hands and compare skills.
But the young master soon discovered that he was no match for Feng as he was easily tossed to the ground.

Instead of getting up, Wei stayed on the ground and waited for Feng to attack.
Wei hoped to use his Ditang Chuen "scissors kick" or "lying break kick" to attack Feng as he advanced.

But Master Feng didn't even bother to attack, he just stood there and shouted out," To lie on the ground is a shameless man, it's a good man who will get up and fight again." ...

[Stacey]

strange that feng would say that considering that jiang hua long invented low mantis based largely impart of his cross training in monkey groundwork. It seems to be used as a last resort and there is no laying down, just very low stances

[Tainan Mantis]

Stacey,
Good point and I understand where you are coming from.

But after thinking about it I don't think Feng's comment reflects a negative attitude towards ground fighting.

If Young Wei had been able to pull Feng down to the ground with him them it would have been different.

As it is, Feng's throw was so good that there was no reason for him to get on the ground.

[Stacey]

Feng being adept at shuai chiao, it only makes sense. Do you know of any other stories? I heard Master Feng (Ghost Shadow) was really tall and used the flying footwork to be very fast. Master Wei's name change has to do with a tradition that Master Jiang Hua Long made and perhaps even before him. Kind of a new name from Master Jiang Hualong's book naming the next generations based on the I Ching.

http://www.8step.com/about/lineage_img.html

More stories please please please please please

Its cool to hear family stories from cousins overseas ;)

Do we have any underworld connections in 8 step history? Any dirty little secrets no one talks about?

Master Sun did a seminar and told the "real" or more logical history or Wong Long. No enlightenenment under the tree, a lot of bloodshed, insurgence, betrayal and all they typical bitterness of chinese history. We always heard that Jiang Hua Long was a kind of robin hood. From Illya Protovinov's article I found that Song Side's decentents think of him as a fool who lived in their ancestor's shadow. I don't care of right or wrong, I just get a kick out of the "Rash.omon" of viewpoints and the stories that make up our history.

[Tainan Mantis]

Ilya Profatilov would never say anything to sully the names of his MA ancestors which he looks on as his own flesh and blood.
I have read the article you refer to and come to a different conclusion as to its meaning.

[Stacey]

Well I don't know him personally, but the tone of the article's word usage made him look less than Song Zide which only makes sense because it was told by Song's his decendents. I didn't even remotely imply that Illya was putting any kind of slant on it, hes just relating what they have said.

What is your interpretation?

[mantis108]

Hi Tainan Mantis,

Thanks for the nice story. I thought the moral is about Wude (martial virtus) as well as relative skill levels.

Anyway, a bit of a side note that I would like to share. Once upon a time in China, story telling in the restaurants were very popular. Epic stories that were written in chapters format (ie Romance of three kingdoms and Water Margin) were best seat sellers. That is kind of like live band in the bar thing except that epic stories can go on for days so a good story teller could guarantee seat sales. This popularity of chapter format stories somehow translated into Kung Fu. In truely friendly matches, that is when both parties really are for exploring the depth of different Kung Fu, one party becomes the exponent of a move and other does the counter whichever that may be. This countering and anticounter could go on if they are equally matched. If for certain reasons, a break (not when a finished move applied) appears, either side (usually the upper hand) would pause slightly for the other to recouperate. Then they go at it again. This was also a good measure for not having a set time period (rounds) as in modern day. Sometimes an incent is burnt to approximate the entire duration of the match (about half an hour to an hour). Individual rounds don't really exsit. The way that we exercise the Taizu Duanda in advanced level is similar in this respect. That's when martial arts really is about the art and not about winning or losing.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Stacey,
Those other subjects you brought can be discussed at another time.
Thank s to you and Mantis108 for your comments.
This story was told by a long time student of 8 Step master Wei Hsiaotang

[Tainan Mantis]

continued from my first post...

...On hearing these words from Feng Huanyi, master Wei came to a realization and respectfully honored Feng Huanyi as his shrfu.
After 4 years of bitter practice master Wei attained the essence of 8 Step PM.
He was 20 years old.

At this time he was invited to Fushan county to be a MA coach.
At 23 he was posted in the military as a MA instructor.

In 1931 master Wei took a pleasure trip to Korea.
Several of his Chinese friends in Korea knew that he was a MA instructor and would get up early in the morning with him to practice kung fu and chat.

One day, his friend Tsuei, who managed a restaurant, ran into some serious business trouble.
He was being chased and beaten by 4 or 5 Koreans.

He ran to master Wei crying out," The Koreans are beating me with sticks!"
As master Wei ran forward he shouted out to the Koreans," Don't strike! Don't strike!" Trying to stop the Koreans from using their sticks.

Unfortuneatly they didn't speak master Wei's Shandong dialect.
They could only understand that master Wei and Tsuei where friends...so they hit them both!

Master Wei and all his friends had no choice but to run back to Tsuei's restaurant and hide.

The Koreans wouldn't give up so easily and used their sticks to smash through the windows and jump in.
Master Wei and his friends wouldn't survive in there so they escaped through the back door.
The Koreans quickly gave chase with shouts of death.

At this point he realized that he'd be beaten to death if he didn't fight back.
As he ran he pulled out from inside his jacket a weapon unique to 8 Step PM, "Reach to Sky Palm", and attached it to his hand...

[HuangKaiVun]

"To lie on the ground is a shameless man, it's a good man who will get up and fight again."


I was thrown down by a fellow martial artist recently in a sparring contest.

When she had me on the ground, she stopped fighting. I said "Finish me" and she said "Why?"

I then jumped back up and attacked her. She should've finished me when I was on the ground so that I couldn't come back up after her.

Master Feng was in the error to assume that a grounded opponent was a defeated one.

[illusionfist]

HKV- Different time, different decorum. Back in the day, that was a perfectly acceptable way of carrying out a fight because one's own virtue was most important. To get up after being openly beaten escalated a challenge match to something else. Back in those days, it clearly showed your character and your intentions if you got back up.

Peace :D

[HuangKaiVun]

Tradition or not, image shouldn't mean SQUAT compared to survival.

Anybody who refuses to acknowledge that, even in a challenge match, is a DEAD MAN in real fighting.

Never turn your back - or ego - on an opponent.

[cha kuen]

Interesting story but what kind of fighter stays on the ground waiting for the guy to come into his scissor leg .

weird.

[HuangKaiVun]

A REAL fighter, that's what.

In a real fight, a person should not allow a downed opponent to get back up unless he feels he can run away.

Similarly, a person who gets taken down shouldn't assume that he's automatically going to be allowed to get back up. The real life fight isn't finished until one of the fighters is taken out or gets away.

A scissor kick or leg maneuver can be extremely useful in fighting a real life attacker who knocks you down and is seeking to finish the job.

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks for the comments, very interesting.
Since the comments don't point to a translation defect I will continue...

The so called "Reach To Sky Palm" is what people normally call the finger puller.
It is worn on the finger or thumb to assist in pulling back the bowstring when hunting with arrows.
It is a wide ring made of metal or jade with one end protruding from the side.
It somewhat resembles E- Mei Needles, but half the length and more nimble.

Back to the story.
The Koreans were about to smash Master Wei and his friends with sticks.
As Master Wei ran he suddenly turned around and dodged to the side using the technique "Green Dragon Shakes its Tail" and with his concealed weapon cracked the skull of the nearest Korean, knocking him to the ground.

The other Koreans saw this and started shouting out something to the effect,"Chinaman kills Korean!"

Since it was now only Master Wei standing there they didn't run figuring his two fists couldn't take all four of them.

Just then the electric tram stopped nearby and many of the passengers, hearing the shouts, jumped off and surrounded Master Wei.

The mob grabbed whatever was available and advanced on Master Wei ready to strike him to death, but as soon as Master Wei was attacked he fought back with the speed characteristic of a fighting mantis.

Later, he couldn't recall what techniques he used when fighting and running he only knew that he had managed to smash his way out of the circle and escape back to his friend's house.

On reading the next day's newspaper he discovered that he had seriously injured one and killed three Koreans.

He was able to return back to Shandong thanks to the help of his friends.
He didn't return to Korea for another 17 years.
By that time his name had already changed from Wei Yentong to the now well known Wei Hsiaotang.


All comments welcome.

[Andy Miles]

This is the same account that I have heard plus or minus some details. I didn't know about the hand hook. Tainan, do you know if the newspaper article still exists?
Grandmaster Shyun told me a story about Grandmaster Wei against some fat guy with Iron stomache in the park. Evidently this guy would invite people to punch him in the stomache and could injure the attackers through his coordinated iron stomache. Master Wei accepted. Everyone expected Master Wei to drive into him, but instead Wei slapped the man in the face and then punched him in his "iron stomache". The man was startled, and found himself driven back and folded by Master Wei.


Boston, Feb 3rd
Monday 6:30-7:30
Be there, bring a friend and a notebook

[Tainan Mantis]

Andy,
I doubt the newspaper article still exists.

Master Wei slapped him?
These chi gung feats are very common and you can witness them yourself if you come to Taiwan, but I have never heard that such a tactic would be used.

I have had several first hand experiences as have my students, shrfu and friends.

[Tainan Mantis]

GM Wei's students collected his sonnets and wrote them down.
Here are four verses as well as the Chinese text.
Please feel free to comment on or correct my translation.

In totoal 6 specific techniques/methods are mentioned.
As I recall 8 Step's Black Tiger Steals the Heart is not the same as the 7* technique.
But is one of the 8 moving steps.

"Attack through the center gate,
Move the hands continuously like the wheels of a cart,
legs move forward and backward like its' axles,
This is difficult for the enemy to approach."

"Enter through the center, overturn the sides,
Move the fists continuously,
Fists thrown down are hard to dodge,
Sticking to him with folded elbow is most natural."

"Seizing hand straight punch is difficult to defend against,
Black tiger steals the heart observe the center,
adding the groin kick is better,
Stealing treasure from behind is most important."

"Connecting fanche lulu together is forceful,
Others can't approach it with its' fists in front and back,
The enemy finds it hard to approach and attack,
I can move back, but it is not easy for him to move forward."

[Andy Miles]

Tainan=Rules

-----)Fists thrown down are hard to dodge,
Does this refer to li pi's power cuts, wheel fists and other swinging strikes? Could this refer to lowfist or other body strikes. My chinese sucks. Is the xia used as a verb or an adjective?

Sticking to him with folded elbow is most natural."
This could mean a number of things. I'm seeing an elbow strike/throw or following up a blocked punch with an elbow. It could also refer to "kidnapping elbow" which we americans call "over elbow" Stealing treasure from behind I was thinking about just yesterday. A wrestler will get behind and lock his hands around your belly, in 8 step you grasp the groin from the same position.
Black tiger steals the heart refers to a gua w/ sun punch to the heart. Which is only logical for invading the center. This followed with a groin kick is the second tan tui we teach. A hand change, with a shift in body position turns you to the outside gate like phoenix shoots to the sky.

[Tainan Mantis]

Andy,
Lipi's power cut:
Throwing the fists down here refers to performing PI, the pi in the name Lipi, over and over.
Otherwise known as fanche technique.
In the Lipi form this technique is done once bfefore connecting to other techniques.

Folded Elbow here in my understanding refers specifically to the fourth "hard" technique of 8 Hard and 12 Soft.
This technique is applied to the opponent when sticking close or leaning.

Stealing Treasure here is not as the application you mentioned, but very close. To change to your defintion is easy.

It is this way, after performing the groin kick, if the opponent defends against you well, then he can stick to your leg as you are trying to return it to the ground.
You must retreat as he rushes in, he will perform a takedown, but if you"steal the Treasure" then he will be hampered.

So if he is good he can get you in a bear hug like you say, and you can try to "steal..." at this point.

What I said of Black Tiger Stealing the Heart being one of the 8 moving steps is incorrect.
The 8th moving step is also known as Black Tiger Exits the Cave.
It is said by Dzuo Hsienfu that GM Wei spent 3 years trying to perfect this technique.

That is 3 Years=1 technique, not one form!

[Andy Miles]

We do powercuts(fan che)that way in the beggining levels, but make them very large later on. After that we make them shorter but keep the waist movement and dropping action. These are exclusively for breaking/striking, but not in rapid succession.
For the rapid yang attack we call this "speeding wheel" because it has the same waist movement ratio as wheel fist, but is shortened. We do this as a very yang attack and also use it as "intelligence gathering" as your striking After they eventually close their gates, we'll typically use a stealing hand to flank them or break the stolen arm using power cut.
He mentions to defend against flanking attackers. This makes me think of a more extended attack like wheelfist.
I confused black tiger stealing heart for black tiger hits heart. Hae hu da xin. Like i said, my chinese is terrible. Added to that some of the techniques have older names and euphamisms.
Are you sure "steal the treasure" isn't a groin shot? Everywhere I've learned it, the treasure is a euphamism for genitals. Well it could be both. If their is one thing I am certain about, its that nothing is certain. I have a strata of apps for sets as I learn more of the power generation and theories of the system. With some of these extra powers, I can pull off revealed techniques that would have been impossible for me before.
What do you know about Master Wei's personal training? I've noticed his build and Chang Deng San (the Iron Butterfly) and its obvious to me that their training was very different than others. We do many endurances, which I understand was a favorite past time of both Masters. They also were adept in Tai Chi. Both were very strong and stocky.
Tainan and other Tang Lang Shifus: What was your instructor test like? Techniques are superficial compared to training methods. What physical endurances were neccesary before you could teach?

wo de zhong wun shuo de bu hao.

[Tainan Mantis]

What I was trying to say is that stealing treasure is the hand strike to the groin.

In the sonnet, Wei's meaning is that it will be applied after he does a groin kick and the opponent rushes in, it is a chance for Wei to steal the treasure.

I did not train with GM Wei, but we can understand his training to a certain extant from the sonnets he has on the subject.

As for the instructor test that sounds like a very long thread.
Maybe we can start a new one.

[Andy Miles]

ok..my misurderstanding. Same technique. I tend to use it more pulling their leg and groin striking as their body comes forward.

[PaulLin]

Tainan Mantis,

For your info. whatever you have researched on mantis stories, will eventially becomes Shyun Style's legend, only fancier. You are unpaid worker for them to gethering info.

I wouldn't even bother with them. Only know so little. A tip for dishonor people is they will make you dare not to challenge them to come up with real things. Put up with all the legend up front so you think they are some one or have some thing. In truth, they have nothing else than second-handed info that was modified with personal fantisies.

Oh, got to tell you one thing, GM Wei didn't use the secrete weapon, whoever told you that has fantisized it. He grabed the hook that used in the cooking kitchen for burning woods for his weapon. My father has been with GM Wei over 30 years in daily bases. The source you have, he has been with GM Wei for about 3 years, in Gm Wei's last years in life.

OOps, I am giving out free bees again for fantisy sellers. Well, I don't really care about the people who paid attention to the fancies and ignored the boring real things. They can have them all.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Paul,
Where have you been these past months?
Thank you for your comments on the dangers of my disseminating information on the 8 Step PM style.
This story is from public records and doesn't include private matters that are not transmitted to outsiders.

This version of the story, I know there are several, comes from Dzuo Hsienfu.
Are you saying he only sudied with GM Wei for 3 years?
I have not checked on that.

Master Dzuo has recently gone to the trouble of republishing GM Wei's second and third books on 8 Step PM these past few months.
These books, as you must know, have always been exceedingly hard to come by as Wei only sold them in the park and never gave them to any publisher.

The purpose of my translating these works is in preparation for the tribute page to GM Wei.
Besides this small bit of info I have included there is a large body of material already translated by your Dad's kung fu brother's son.
(Sorry folks this page isn't ready for the public yet).

As far as anyone's claims of studying with Wei are concerned there are many pictures of Wei in group and class photos as well as Birthday celebration photos as he prepares to cut the cake, not to mention his PM application photos.

I hope we can keep this thread dedicated to GM Wei's achievements and not let it degrade into a thread on the real and the fake.

[Andy Miles]

We are nobodies in the grand sceme of things and we are all unpaid historians and slaves to our system. No one is in Kung Fu for the money. Its not exactly a cash cow. I could get yoga certified in a few months and make lots of cash. Enjoy it, but don't take it so seriously. The disciples of Christ had slightly different accounts of his life and he was their messiah. Master Wei was just a man who enjoyed his kung fu. No one that you will ever meet will become aglow when you mention his name. Women wont love you and you wont get promoted. Most people don't even know what it is. Its no different in Taiwan. I promise more people are interested in badminton or samba dancing than in some sub system of kung fu system based on a bug.

Believe what you like, but please respect other peoples perceptions. I could say, "Tainan, your wrong, Wei Hsiao Tang used his bare hands!" I am right, you are wrong....but seriously, it doesn't matter in the least. I am just practicing and trying to promote 8 step. In my spare time, I look forward to seeing what the other people's training or stories are like.

Please give us your impressions or stories that have been passed down, but please do so with respect.

[Tainan Mantis]

These past translations pertaining to 8 Step PM were being done for a friend who was making a tribute page to GM Wei.

His project has been put on hold temporarily.
So, until further notice I will not be making any more translations from GM Wei's books.

It would be nice if someone from the 8 Step community would take it upon themselves to do a complete translation of his three books as they give deep insight into the style.

Since my PM style is not 8 Step I don't think I can do justice to a complete translation of his works.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
These past translations pertaining to 8 Step PM were being done for a friend who was making a tribute page to GM Wei.

His project has been put on hold temporarily.
So, until further notice I will not be making any more translations from GM Wei's books.

It would be nice if someone from the 8 Step community would take it upon themselves to do a complete translation of his three books as they give deep insight into the style.

Since my PM style is not 8 Step I don't think I can do justice to a complete translation of his works.

It is good not to leaking more info. until the real publishing.

For your info, Master Dzou ShianFu, according to my father has told me, came to GM Wei roughly 2 years before my father moved to US. And after 1 year my father moved to US, GM Wei passed away. So you can figur out how long he has the chance to learn form GM Wei.

Also, the books of GM Wei aer in a introductory level. It is meant to introduce the art, not to create an expert.

[GiantMantis]

it would be great if i could see some differnces between shuyn style 8-step and some traditional 8 step praying mantis

[Tainan Mantis]

Here is a continuation of the above "Sonnets of Striking Hands."
Included is the Chinese so that some people may argue with my translation.

Paul,
I hope you can take some time to go over this and make corrections or state your opinion.

The last paragraph 2nd and 3rd lines come directly from Wu Yuxiang's "The Mental Elucidation of the Thirteen Postures"(Taiji classic).
The last line is a logical continuation that isn't found in the Taiji text.



"Left and Right Hook Punches are like a ring
They make it hard for the opponent to decide when to attack
Sink the elbow when using Black Tiger Steals the Heart punch
White Tiger Extends his Claw to slash the face.

The power of Seizing Hand Straight Punch is even more fierce
Your hands and feet attack nonstop to the front and back
Enter the center gate and use Double Elbows
If he steps back use your palms to push him.

Backfist and smashing fist are connected punches
The two hands turn nonstop up and down
That the hard can overpower the soft is inevitable
The soft must be nimble to overcome the hard.

To attack your enemy before he is ready
Your eyes should be clear your hands should be quick and your feet should be light
When your enemy comes to attack don't over exert yourself
But when there is an opportunity to chase and pursue don't ease up.

To strike back and forth with your attack
Every step you take should be according to your strategy
Your body should be like the shape of a spinning plate
Moving forward, backward, dodging, turning, flying and leaping.

The stance should be neither in the shape of
the ding(T) or ba(/ \) character
If the enemy doesn't move I won't initiate the attack
When the enemy moves slightly I will complete the movement first
When the enemy desires to move I will hit first.

[PaulLin]

Don't have time to read in full detail now, so I just fast read through.

These generally are common requirements of internal boxing, for very good reason that they are made in consider of what to go for and what to abondent in training and applying.

8 step mantis has a lot of them in it.

The "din bu din, ba bu ba, bei bu dong, ji bu fa" line at the last you are telling me to read is one of the requirement that 8 step has. It was aquired form internal boxing. This is one of the very difference of 8 step and all other styles of mantis.

I will come back and read more and hopfully can come up with helpful commons.

Later Tainan Mantis.

PS. If you had that book, it is a very good one. If you put some requirements listed in there in your mantis, I would expect to see different postures in your demo. posted on the babu tanlong site.

[Tainan Mantis]

Paul,
Thanks for the thumb icon.
I hope to see your take on the definition of the sonnets.

About the postures...
Yesterday GM Wei's were discussing who they should pick to represent the corect movement of 8 Step.
It seems not easy as the teaching was different for people of different body types.

The vid clips of me are not 8 Step PM.