leung ting and his sifu leung sheung

[byond1]

hi guys!!
did anyone notice that in the latest leung ting interview, leung ting starts talking about leung sheung and than his comment is edited?
does anyone know what the friction was between yip man and leung sheung?
did leung sheung learn the bot tzam do from yip man or just the pole?

[scuba steve]

1. You should ask direct Leung Sheung students this. Of course since they do perform the Bat Jam Do that may or may not answer your question.

2. As Leung Ting quite publically jumped to Yip Man to be a student under him. It does not appear that Ting asked permission to do this.

3. After Yip Man's death there were reports in magazines in hong Kong that Leung Ting declared himself an 8th duan in Wing Tsun and the new "gatekeeper' of Wing Chun. This was refuted quite publically by members of the VTAA in a press conference, among which were people like Leung Sheung, Yip Chun, Wong Shun Leung and many others.

http://www.wingchun.hu/scandal.html

Is one of the more sensational versions of this event.

Suffice it to say, that Leung Ting seems NOT to have mellowed towards his former Sifu after all these years, as evidenced by his comments in his most recent book "Roots and Branches of the Wing Tsun system" and other places.

Leung Ting has seen the same thing within his own organization as has William Cheung and others. But hey each lineage has it's own share of politics and intrigue. I think each martial arts group has this, it's a part of human nature.

[yuanfen]

Dont know and not really interested on "who what when were"
about Leung Ting's background. Even with the Leung Shun link- some claim that it involved a student of leung Shun being the sifu rather than Leung Shun himself.

Really doesnt matter- Leung Ting has been at it for a while. To his credit he he doesnt say that he is teaching wc atleast with the wc
or the vt spellings. he is also clear that he does things differently from others- heard him say so himself when WSL and TST first visited the US. His real strength is marketing- and the interview clearly shows that.

[bglenn]

No offense,but who really cares about gossip.Imagine something happen yesterday for example two people get into a fight .You ask three people to relay you the story of what happened.You will get three different stories,then just add a healthy ego,and who knows if anything you hear is the truth.Your talking thirty years back come on.

[reneritchie]

Supposedly, Yip Bo-Ching began giving Yip Man large(r?) sums of money to learn the dummy and weapons, and Yip expected his other students to follow suit if they wanted the material as well. This led to a break down in relations between some for a while, which were later patched up. (Any real, long term relationship, has ups and downs).

RR

[anerlich]

http://www.wingchun.hu/scandal.html

That article was poorly written, and made even worse by crap translation. Compound it by putting it in red writing on a black background and it was truly awful.

Going into all this crap will do no one any good. Forget it.

[scuba steve]

Mr Nerlich,

You are quite right...

To make amends...

Go check this out:

http://www.calasanz.com/Media/windows_media_player/wing_chun_02.asf

:rolleyes: :D ;) :p :eek: :confused: :D

[Grendel]

Originally posted by scuba steve

http://www.calasanz.com/Media/windows_media_player/wing_chun_02.asf

:rolleyes: :D ;) :p :eek: :confused: :D

Hi Scuba Steve,

I think I recognize this form from my collegiate water polo days. It's the jong set performed underwater. Notice how he practices the dive into the pool prior to the first 10 hands. That was a dead giveaway. And every once in a while his head comes up to gulp some air. :D

Regards,

[cha kuen]

I talked to a few students under Leung Sheung and I asked them, "There are people on the net saying that Leung Sheung never learned the knives from Yip Man. Did he?"

Their replies, "Of course he did. If he didn't then how would we have learned the knives?"

**wing chun books** (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)

[hunt1]

Scuba, where did you find these clips. I needed a good laugh.Thanks for posting them.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by anerlich

That article was poorly written, and made even worse by crap translation. Compound it by putting it in red writing on a black background and it was truly awful.

http://www.wingchun.hu/scandal.html

Cut and paste the article into a file for easier reading. It's worth the effort.

I believe the content is accurate in its facts and conclusions.

At that time, Leung Sheung, TST, Lok Yiu, and Wong Shun Leung could and did in fact speak for Wing Chun.

Up until the time of the news conference, the four merely tolerated Leung Ting, but certainly didn't endorse him.

Regards,

[anerlich]

I did read the article. There may be some validity in it, not that that's likely to change any of those instructors' students' opinions.

I still say it's poorly written, translated and the website designer should be flogged for putting red on black. I felt like I was reading a very long post from the VTAA forum.

Steve, that was very ,er, "interesting". My speakers were turned off so I didn't hear the soundtrack, though I'm guessing late 70's disco or early eighties technocrap. The tempo was "unusual" and some of the postures taken and angulation looked very different to what I've been taught. And those sidekicks were just plain weird, though he sure could hold 'em up there. I wouldn't want to pay out on the guy's WC without touching hands, but he certainly deserves all the scorn everyone can muster for that megastrange hairstyle.

[Miles Teg]

That was kind of weird.

Who is that guy?

[TjD]

negative:

seemed like he was doing lots of weird stuff with his upper body, because he wasnt generating any power from his legs/stance (which did look pretty crappy) :confused:

most of that bending over seems like asking to be wailed on, pulled over or pushed down. mabye he needs a higher dummy.

keeping the head forward like that is definaltely a bad idea

positive:
he did look like he was putting some energy into the dummy and getting results from it, however oddly he was generating power.

[scuba steve]

For everyone looking at that video you MUST turn on the sound to truly get the full effect.

For yuanfen you can see other versons of ths wonder.

http://www.calasanz.com/download.html

There you can download other versions of the legendary Calasanz in action. See him in Windows Media Player, Realmedia and Quicktime.

After you gaze and LISTEN in sheer wonder to the wingchun2 clip.

Please check out the clip entitled Legend.
The Bil Jee of your ummmm dreams? comes to life.

Consider these a late chrismas gift to you all.

[TjD]

the guy seems like hes making up for an extreme lack of knowledge about wing chun below the waist by doing really weird stuff with his torso. rather scary... youd think by doing any chi sau he would realize that the weird torso stuff hes doing is a bad idea...

mabye he was trying to incorporate a bob and weave into wing chun? ugh


i almost hope they keep popularizing this kind of wing chun... so when i bust my skillz out in the big time people wont know what hit em :D :D :D

[S.Teebas]

http://www.calasanz.com/Media/windows_media_player/wing_chun_02.asf

I like the bit where instead of the double kick he does a "horse kicking dirt away" kind of action... heheh :)

[byond1]

hi guys!!
thanks for everyones comments.....
rene--that is what i had heard...thanks for the comfirmation

[Grendel]

Originally posted by cha kuen
I talked to a few students under Leung Sheung and I asked them, "There are people on the net saying that Leung Sheung never learned the knives from Yip Man. Did he?"

Their replies, "Of course he did. If he didn't then how would we have learned the knives?"

Indeed. And what would be your lineage that you question Yip Man's most senior student?

[t_niehoff]

Grendel wrote:

Indeed. And what would be your lineage that you question Yip Man's most senior student?

Leung Sheung was not Yip's "most senior student" -- there were several persons in Foshan that studied with Yip before he moved to Hong Kong. Also, what does the lineage of the questioner matter? Isn't this just an argument from authority? (suggesting that we should believe - i.e., not question - Leung Sheung because he was Leung Sheung!). From my perspective, I think the real question should be: what does it matter from whom Leung Sheung learned the knives? If he had skill with the knives, then he had skill with the knives. And if he had skill with the knives, then it doesn't matter who taught him (his skill speaks for itself); if he didn't have skill with the knives, it also doesn't matter who taught him. In Yip Man WCK we have the kuit "hok mo mo gong sien hou, tat jie wai sien" (don't speak of who is junior or senior; the one who attains skill first is the senior). TN

Terence

[byond1]

hi t!
well you mention that "does it matter from who ls learned the knives "....well imo, even if he is good with the knives but he learned the knife form from cst, but says he learned from yip man....what is important is that he is a lier. no ethics. i wont learn from someone with no mo duck or face or ethics. so in the big picture ...it doesnt matter who ,learned from who as long as the skill is there but...it does matter what you say about who lyou learned from.. if you are not being honest
brian

[Grendel]

Hi Terence,

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Grendel wrote:

Indeed. And what would be your lineage that you question Yip Man's most senior student?

Leung Sheung was not Yip's "most senior student" -- there were several persons in Foshan that studied with Yip before he moved to Hong Kong. Also, what does the lineage of the questioner matter? Isn't this just an argument from authority?

I'll answer your question first. What does the lineage of the questioner matter? The question bespeaks either trolling or the mindset of one of the Wing Chun marketing minions. To answer his question, I need to know which perspective the question's coming from.

(suggesting that we should believe - i.e., not question - Leung Sheung because he was Leung Sheung!).

Well, yeah! :D He was the public spokesman for for Yip Man in his lifetime, so I think that's a justified perspective.

In Yip Man WCK we have the kuit "hok mo mo gong sien hou, tat jie wai sien" (don't speak of who is junior or senior; the one who attains skill first is the senior). TN

And, although I had let the Foshan stoonts of Yip Man slip my mind, this point you make rehabilitates my original statement on his primary place in Yip Man seniority. :p

Regards,

[Grendel]

Originally posted by byond1
hi t!
well you mention that "does it matter from who ls learned the knives "....well imo, even if he is good with the knives but he learned the knife form from cst, but says he learned from yip man....what is important is that he is a lier. no ethics. i wont learn from someone with no mo duck or face or ethics. so in the big picture ...it doesnt matter who ,learned from who as long as the skill is there but...it does matter what you say about who lyou learned from.. if you are not being honest
brian

Hi Brian,

I think you've confused Leung Ting with Leung Sheung. I'll leave it to LT to answer for himself. :D

Regards,

[byond1]

lol.....just an example ...not one i ment to be taken literaly....i will edit and substitute lt for ls..lol

[t_niehoff]

Hi Brian,

byond1 wrote:

well you mention that "does it matter from who ls learned the knives "....well imo, even if he is good with the knives but he learned the knife form from cst, but says he learned from yip man....what is important is that he is a lier. no ethics. i wont learn from someone with no mo duck or face or ethics. so in the big picture ...it doesnt matter who ,learned from who as long as the skill is there but...it does matter what you say about who lyou learned from.. if you are not being honest.

I guess you should count yourself lucky in that you needn't worry about learning from Leung Sheung. ;) But I do wonder if you feel the same way about your secondary school and university professors? How about your driver's education instructor: did you run a character check on him before getting behind the wheel? I think you get my point -- our WCK instructor(s), just like our other teachers in other areas, aren't -- or at least shouldn't be -- our spiritual or personal development guides; they should teach and coach us to further our skills in their areas of expertise. TN

Terence

[[Censored]]

But I do wonder if you feel the same way about your secondary school and university professors? How about your driver's education instructor: did you run a character check on him before getting behind the wheel?

Those are relatively insignificant, short-term relationships, compared to a kung-fu teacher.

I think you get my point -- our WCK instructor(s), just like our other teachers in other areas, aren't -- or at least shouldn't be -- our spiritual or personal development guides; they should teach and coach us to further our skills in their areas of expertise

And if their two areas of expertise are:

* Playing Wing Chun, and
* Telling lies about it

Do you think you can pick and choose what lessons you will learn? Everybody thinks they can, and most people fail. Speaking as someone who has left schools before due to an instructor's bad character...better to spend 3 years looking for a suitable teacher, than spend 3 years learning from a mediocre one!

[byond1]

actually t...i count my self unlucky that i dont have to worry about learning from ls.......and disagree with your analogy....a sifu is like a father...mo duk and face are an important part of marial arts...a sifu helps one from ignorance by showing paths to walk...they should help our personel develpment , imo......and i agree with censored that you cant compare the lifelong relasionship with your sifu to that of a teacher you spend 6 weeks with.

[planetwc]

Well said to [Censored] and byond1.

[reneritchie]

"Of course he did. If he didn't then how would we have learned the knives?"

That's perhaps not the wisest of statements to make. I've seen 4 or 5 'Leung Sheung' knife sets over the years, all *completely* different, so I would hazzard to say most probably learned them elsewhere or made them up (one was so bizarre it really had to have been made up). Logical analysis, unfortunately, doesn't always hold up in an illogical world where people sometimes do what's best for them, rather than what's best, or just what they want, even at their own expense. WCK is, of course, sadly full of the latter.

Ken Chung sifu's seems like a good, default, no nonsense Leung Sheung knife set. The further they diverge from that, the more I'd wonder (even if it was proveable it came directly from Yip Man, if it contained several back flips, would it be better to learn?)

Brian - The thing to understand is most Chinese will never say they didn't learn something, and most will never take credit for coming up with something on their own, even if its terrific. Then, many western students will take whatever they say as the gospel and argue about it, sometimes to the point of violence (loyalty which is seldom returned as well). This is not 'lying' in that culture but a rather complex interaction of the concpt of having or giving 'face', and the egotism (and sometimes greed) that in a few cases gets mixed in. Most Chinese understand these things, contrasted to Western students, and don't argue about them or take them too seriously.