Any comic book fans here??

[Brad]

Just thought I'd take a break from the main forums for a little bit ;) So I was sitting there reading my newest issue of X-Men and thought "wow, this comic's actually cool again!" I really like how there's finnally getting back to focusing on real issues like rascism, drug use, and other the average person can relate with, while not being "oreachy" about everything. I was getting tired of seeing them deal more with aliens than the normal US population. So what are your favorite comics? And just to make this kungfu related... are there any good martial arts themed comics in the English language? :D

And has anyone seen the preview of the new X-men artist Kia Asamiya? Seeing the X-Men mangafied took a little getting used to, but overall I think the look is pretty slick :cool:

[Chang Style Novice]

I love comic books, but can just barely stand superheroes.

some Favorites:

Jim, Eightball, Hate, Berlin, American Splendor, Palestine, Acme Novelty Library, Love and Rockets, Maakies, Cerebus, Bacchus,

Yeah, I'm a snooty fu(ker alright.

[Marshdrifter]

I like comics, but like Mr. Novice, I don't really care for most
superhero comics. Far too many of my comics are related to
gaming (Knights of the Dinner Table and **** Tower). I also
appreciate the occasional Vertigo title, such as Transmetropolitan
and Sandman. For martial art genre books, the only ones I can
really tolerate are Usagi Yojimbo and Way of the Rat (and Way
of the Rat is pushing it sometimes). I also enjoy Girl Genius and
anything that Phil Foglio has done as well as the books that
Johnen Vasquez has done (Johnny the Homicidal Maniac, Squee!--
my personal favorite, and I feel Sick).

Unlike Mr. Novice, I live in a rural area and have trouble getting
a lot of the independant books, although I picked up a good one
in Chicago called "My Fighting Technique is Unstoppable." It's
way too much fun and has made the rounds at my kwoon.

I used to read the x-men back in the mid-eighties before the
"Fall of the Mutants" happened. I happened to read a friend's
copy of a recent one (with the Alpha Flight guy and exploding
kid). It was pretty much back to old form. I was impressed. OTOH,
I'm still not going to start reading it again.

[Chang Style Novice]

marshdrifter:

www.mftisu.com

Get your War on!

[Design Sifu]

Even had a comic strip running in the back pages of Kungfu-Qigong Magazine for like 3-4 years... Tiger's Tale
. . . for any of you long time readers...

Attepts to develop it as an online cartoon have been long & slow going... but Yeah I'm a reader for sure... we've even chatted about it here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=13575)

Way of the Rat is pretty good in terms of Hong Kong style fun... Far better than Vertigo's Fight for tomorrow or Marvel's new Master of Kung-Fu (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=16569).... But for a real kungfu Comic treat .... find Ultimate Marvel Teamup #15 &16.... where Spiderman meets Shang Chi, Master of Kungfu (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=8540) for the first time... again. Great art & fight choreography.

New X-Men is where it's at for me... very edgy almost Post-superhero... resembling the Movie more than the superhero genre...Written by Grant Morrison (http://www.grant-morrison.com/) of Animal Man, Doom Patrol & The Invisibles (http://www.barbelith.com/bomb/), he also writesTHE FILTH (http://www.dccomics.com/vertigo/filth/)...for the not so squemish..

Haven't been enjoying Uncanny X-men though... but Ultimate X-men is kind of fun...

Other titles of note...
100 bullets:
Vertigo's crime noir meet's spys...

Wildcats V3.0:
Post superhero's rated R.

JLA:
100% superhero's, Superfriends for the 21st century.

The Ultimates:
Remember the Avengers? here's the wide screen version...

Hellboy:
Indiana Jones meet Cathullu...GREAT ART.

Lucifer:
Vertigo's most successful spinoff from The SANDMAN.

there's ALOT of fresh new stuff out there. Comic Publishing is currently undergoing a new breath of vitality what with the recent successes of Spiderman (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=12407) and the growing interest in The HULK (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=13317) , Daredevil & the upcomming X-men sequel...

I suggest any of you that have stopped reading comics drop by your local comic shop & have a look around. You might find something worth reading...

[Qi dup]

Originally posted by Design Sifu

I suggest any of you that have stopped reading comics drop by your local comic shop & have a look around. You might find something worth reading...

Hey that's me!


I have a hard time going back into Comic shops. It's pretty hard to jump into the middle of a story, so I don't know what to get.


Great post DS, lost of good links.

[Marshdrifter]

CSN: I can't get that link to work.

DS: I actually like "Fighting for Tomorrow" but not really as a
martial art book. I think the martial art aspect is really
unimportant to the, imo, relatively interesting character
development going on. Good pathos. OTOH, I can't stand the
new Master of Kung Fu.

What is post-superhero?

I felt the x-men movie followed the feeling of the books pretty
well, at least when I read it.

As for Lucifer, I never really cared for any of the Sandman spinoffs.
The Dreaming had some excellent potential and good individual
issues, but the overall series had problems. I did read the Lucifer
mini-series and didn't like how it was treating the character.

QD: A good way to go is start up on some limited run mini-series
sort of things. Or graphic novels. I'm working on the backlog for
Usagi Yojimbo. Also, talk to other people and, if possible, borrow
their comics. A friend is getting me hooked on the Scud books in
this way. What can I say, I like Drywall. :-)

[Chang Style Novice]

Marshdrifter:

and no wonder! I left out the 'n'

http://www.mnftiu.com

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
http://www.mnftiu.com
Rock on! If they only had a Circulatory System Mother****er
t-shirt.

Thanks!

[HuangKaiVun]

My favorite of all time are the old "Shang Chi, Master of Kung Fu" books.

I have been collecting that series, and I have about 40-50 of the mags so far. Not a single issue has disappointed me.

However, Marvel Team Up featured a very juvenile Shang Chi as a restaurant coolie. That was NOT COOL.

[quiet man]

Any comic book fans here??

Is the Pope a Catholic? (wait, don't answer that :D ...)

I like these:

F. Miller: "Sin City"
A. Spiegelman: "Maus"
B. Watterson: "Calvin & Hobbes"
J. Smith: "Bone"
A. Moore: "Watchmen"
N. Gaiman: "Sandman"
G. Ennis: "Preacher"

... and more

[Design Sifu]

Quiet man: F.A.B.J.A.N.G. right on....

Couldn't get into "Sin City" myself... TOOO MUCH NOIR I suppose, His 300 rocked though... BUT Dark Knight Strikes Agian Sucked @$$... what a waste.

Tragicly I've yet to read "Maus"... I know I know, :o ... it's ne of books I just must buy when I got the extra bucks & a week off to read it...

Have you ever checked out Joe Sacco? Amazing journalist comics... Palistine is a must read these days. First person narritive of his real life adventures there. No proposed answers or political stance... just straight up acounts of his days nights with the locals...

I Miss "Calvin & Hobbes"... newspaper strips seem soo thin now with out them.

Never got into "Bone" either... read the spin off series ROSE with art by the AMAZING C.Vess.

What's there to say about "Watchmen" that hasen't been said before... If you're into Alan Moore's work you should REALLY check out his ABC line of comics...
America's Best Comics is a standard setter, I'm shocked I didn't mention them in my eariler post...
Promethia:
Beyond WonderWoman... it's the ultimate Meta Magical Mystery Tour in comic form... the ART has been perfect since the very first issue. Probably the only successful C-cup superheroin... or as Moore terms them ScienceHero. Magic, Myths, Monsters & a New York City where the Cops fly around in Flying saucers...
Tom STRONG:
This is superman without the super... Probably the most accessable comic out there these days. Great for youngsters and yet smart enough for us older kids...
Top Ten:
While the series is no longer running it's a mind blower... Hill street Blues meets every super hero universe. Neopolis is the city where EVERYONE has Superpowers... Imagine what the Police must deal with...
League of Extra Ordinary Gentelmen:
The Heros of the Victorian Age saving the world from Victorian evils.... Captian Nemo, Alan Quartermain, Dr. Jeckle (& Mr. Hyde), The Invisible Man, and Mina (Dracula's Ex) unite to Save the Brittish Empire... Long may she reign...

All of these series are regularly collected in hard and soft cover Books. AND SOOOO worth it...

Of course then there's From HELL the comic that inspired the recient movie (And by far scarier)

"Sandman" was great for it's time... and yeah while the Dreaming had some high points it ultimately failed IMO...
Still, I think Lucifer is the most successful spinoff to date
"Preacher" was another great read... though I have to say that G.Ennis seems to have lost his touch and hasn't really come out with anything I'll read.
Ocassionally flip through his PUNISHER series just to see how creative he gets in Killing Mobsters... but beyond that I won't spend $$ on it...

Marvel Team Up featured a very juvenile Shang Chi as a restaurant coolie. That was NOT COOL.
I can totally see what you mean. The Whole ULTIMATE LINE of Marvel comics is a sort of revisionist treatment. So oldskool fans may tend to be put off... Still you gotta admit there was some excellent Kung-fu translation in the art. Something that doen't happen very often... anyone remember the Black & White Kabuki comics?

What is post-superhero?

well if you've read WATCHMEN you know of the whole deconstrucion of the superhero genre... which lead to comics' "Darkage" that whole Mid '80's early '90's period.
Since then "superhero's" have made their comeback to a much more classic form, bright colors crazy concepts etc...

Post Superhero to me are those comics that, while are still, essentially superhero books have matured a bit beyond the "kid stuff" the Spandex has either been hung-up or become secondary to the charactors who may even question the reasons behind wareing it.
The stories are written more for those who grew up with comics than for the kid. Though I'm sure there are plenty of younger readers who'll find it cool. Perhaps they're more violent or cynical in their approch.
WILDSTORM's
Wildcats & The AUTHORITY May be good examples of this... though I would Put New X-Men & STARMAN in the mix as well...

Jeeze.... talk about GEEK-FU!!:rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

PS: Qi dup...what where you into reading when you split? Perhaps I could make a recomendation...

[Qi dup]

Wow, you guys are hardcore!!!!!

The comics I used to collect were pretty basic. I liked

Uncanny X-Men (I love the artest that used to do that comic! I can't remember his name but I remember he gave everyone sharp nuckles and ponty noses, sort of manga like),

Gen: 13 (No comment.)

Spider-man (Before all the freaky scarlet spider stuff)

Dead Pool

and a few other. Those were the ones I read every month. I'm open to all kinds of idea, just so long as it doesn't have to much offensive language or gore.

I would deffinatly barrow from my friends but I don't think any of them are into comics, at least not anymore. I'll try to stop by to one of the shops and look around.

You guys are awsome!

[quiet man]

Design Sifu - no, not familiar with Sacco, but I'll look him up. And you really should check "Bone" out - you won't regret it.

You guys are awsome!

That's a moot question. Mostly I get "You're soo geeky!", or "When will you grow up?" :D

But you shouldn't dismiss superhero comics. Surely, they are often immature and stupid, but every once in a while you come across "DKR", "Red Rain", "Death in the Family" (all Batman), Spiderman's black costume issues (they rock!), Frank Miller's version of Daredevil... however, if you like your superheroes with a twist (I know I do :) ), try Sam Kieth's "The Maxx".

[Chang Style Novice]

quiet man -

Seeing as you're in Croatia, perhaps the first Joe Sacco you should read is Safe Area Goradzje (probably misspelled)

[quiet man]

It's spelled "Gorazhde" (it's a town in Bosnia and Herzegovina). Thanx for the tip, CSN! ;)

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by quiet man
But you shouldn't dismiss superhero comics.
Ok, I enjoyed the Maxx, I'll admit. But my beef tends to be with
the way these things are present. There's a problem with plots
within an unending series. These are often the same problems
that soap operas have. With each successive story arc, you need
to make the next one "better." The challenges must be tougher,
the bad guys badder, &c. After a point, you end up with the
extreme situation where the authors clearly hadn' t thought it
through and can't see a way out for the good guy, so they have
to do a cop-out ending (e.g. Spiderman's "Maximum Carnage").
Obviously, at this point, they realize they can't do this sort of
thing anymore, so they start introducing weird plot twists based
on some form of revised character history. Then new writers show
up and want to change the character in some way. I'm normally
ok with this, but when you stick it in the same title instead of
doing a limited run arc, the inconsistancy makes the book lose
appeal.

There are some good superhero titles out there, but they tend
to be one shot deals (e.g. "DKR") or limited run things.

Qi Dup: A thing you might want to try is to talk to the guy at the
store. They should be able to point out a series of the type you're
looking for and could possibly even suggest a good starting point
(warning: this could be a compiled volume or graphic novel).
Altnerately, you could do what I do and look at the various books.
If you see one that strikes your fancy, buy it. If it sucks, don't
buy it again. If it's merely ok, but doesn't really do anything for
you, buy the next one. If you don't absolutely love it by the third
issue, stop buying it.

[Kristoffer]

spidey as a kid. now,,,,,,, violent stuff.

[Design Sifu]

Marvel's getting really smart...
check out their Free online comics. (http://www.marvel.com/)
an excellent way to get people interested in "reading."

Qi dup:
I think you're thinking about Joe Madura. If you like the Style, Uncanny X-men now features art by "international ((Manga)) superstar Kia Asamiya! Plus: what is Juggernaut's (javascript:MM_openBrWindow('/comics/onsale/lib/view.htm?filename=covers%2F1202%2Fucxm_416.jpg', 'view', 'status=yes,resizable=yes,width=600,height=575,scr ollbars=yes')) dark secret?"

However if you want an edger read, I can't recomend NEW X-MEN enough...

Spiderman: (http://www.marvel.com/minisites/index.htm?family=spider-man)
The comic is making fair use of the attention granted by the movie's success. There's a LARGE variety of comics being published featuring the charactor.
With writers Like Kevin (DOGMA, CLERKS, CHASING AMY) SMITH, and J. Michael (Babylon 5) Straczynski there's a concerted effort to make the series much more accessable...Plus there are plenty of fresh graphic novels available to remind reader what was so good about the comic. Consider the clone saga a thing of the past...[i]I hope.;)

Also... I believe the writter of DEADPOOL is now writting JLA...

BONE... Yeah I just wish I could borrow a bunch froma a friend or something. I fear if I start reading it I'll end up seeking to complete the "collection" which will be P R I C E Y... :confused:

As far as those cassic Batmans and Daredevils... Check out some of the New Daredevil stuff... Kevin Smith wrote an Amazing Daredevil story that's now in Tradepaperback from... a modern classic.

BATMAN was good about a year.5 ago... some of that stuff should be collected by now... Particularly the DETECTIVE comics of that time... if you're into a back issue hunt.

Safe are "Gorazhde":
was my intro to Joe Sacco.... It's not really kid stuff... some times heavy, but SOOO worth the read, just to see what comics are capable of...


Marshdrifter said:
These are often the same problems
that soap operas have. With each successive story arc, you need
to make the next one "better." The challenges must be tougher,
the bad guys badder, &c. After a point, you end up with the
extreme situation where the authors clearly hadn' t thought it
through

I tend to agree... and have since begun following writters more than titles, though I can't help but check up on a much beloved charactor occasionally. However I think comic editors have learned quite a bit since then and writters tend to now be hired to work on "extended" story archs rather than just given a title to write indefinately. This may be a result of the tendancy to "collect" such story arches into Graphic novels. So the result is a greater sence of "completion" with-in various periods in the charactor's life... when it works it works very well. When it doesn't you can drop the title and chack it out again later when a new creative team has taken over...

The internet is a wonderful way of shopping for comics... Getting an idea of what's out & what's comming out. As well as finding some backstory on the creators. A comic shop owner will usually be more than happy to make some recomendations as well...

$10-12 bucks can go along way towards a weekend of comic reading. What with the holidaze comming wouldn't it be nice to be a kid again even for 20 minutes...

I've reciently discovered the joy of passing on piles of comics I've culled from my collection to my girlfriend's younger cousins (when My niece & nephew aren't in town) which has placed this whole art form into a new light...

now, you're homework assignment is to drop by the local comic shop and pick up something new...

Comeback when you've finished reading it and let us know....

What was it?
Was it worth buying?
Will you buy it again?
How was the story? Art? presentation?

:p

[Chang Style Novice]

The most serious problem with superhero comics (or superhero anything for that matter) is that the underlying theme is always going to be the same: "Wouldn't it be really cool if I could kick so much ass?!!" There may be other themes on top of that, or counter themes, or commentary on that theme, or what have you, but the power trip idea is always going to be there in some shape or form - it's part and parcel of the notion of a superhero, and why some authors started exploring the fascistic overtones of that notion, most notably Alan Moore in Miracleman and Watchmen. It's also why those two books, and others like them (The Dark Knight Returns, Bratpack, etc.) are sometimes called 'The Last Word on Superheroes.' And why most of the really good work (IMO) in comics is happening in other genres, like Joe Sacco's journalism, many folks' Raymond Carvery slice of life drama, From Hell's combination of socio-political commentary and gothic horror, Jim Woodring's surrealism, etc..

In other words, I think about all that can be said about superheroes has been said, and from now on, the best we can hope for is talented riffs on old ideas. And only ABC seems really interested in that kind of retro-fun approach. Everyone else is doing 'gritty' 'realistic' stuff that's not really either. It's just the same old power fantasies with more graphic violence and sex.

edit -

Well, Paul Chadwick's "Concrete" seems to have an original angle on the tragic super hero idea, too. I like that one a lot.

[Design Sifu]

The most serious problem with superhero comics (or superhero anything for that matter) is that the underlying theme is always going to be the same: "Wouldn't it be really cool if I could kick so much ass?!!"
Well Said, when it boils down The Super hero Genre is rooted in the power (super?) fantasy...
For any of you looking for a good novel to read, try...
The Amazing Adventures of Cavalier & Klay.

For not fiction on the topic there's a mindboggling list of essays, books or even websites devoted to the topic... I'll see what I can dig up.

Chang, how different is this from the much beloved Hong Kong cinema? Argueably the progenator (sp?) of the superhero Genre can be found in Wu Xia (is that the right term?). As well as Homer...
...NOT SIMPSON! :rolleyes:

Anyway... how different is it from the story of King Author? "wouldn't it be cool if we had a King that kicked such ass...." etc...

I think perhaps the weakness isn't in the genre's initial premise... but perhaps the overharvesting of said genre and it's imbalanced domination of the medium "comics."

Ever read understanding comics? (http://www.scottmccloud.com/)

Anyway, I could agree that WATCHMEN, Dark Knight Returns, Brattback, Miracleman, Zenith, et. al. are sometimes called 'The Last Word on Superheroes.' in much the same way that the book of revelations could be the Last word on Christianity... Dangerous territory (http://members.rogers.com/mattys807/) here eh? hope Dr. Wertham's (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/lit-med/lit-med-db/webdocs/webdescrips/wertham1526-des-.html) not reading this...
:p

My point? I'm not sure... the pressence of Watchmen etc... should mean the end of the superhero genre. It should instead serve as a benchmark ((watermark?) for creators to attempt to transend...
Something ABC achieves... also a writer like Grant Morrison. Ever read his Doom Patrol? how about Animal Man?
His JLA run succeeded in pulling superheros out from under the dreadful shadow of the deconstructionalist (is that a word?) works we've been mentioning.

and his New X meN can called the best of Sci-fi Soap-operas as easily as superhero...

Next Issue: the non-superhero comic

[Chang Style Novice]

"Chang, how different is this from the much beloved Hong Kong cinema?"

Not much. In fact, if I can think of a way it is different (besides medium) this thread will be the first place I announce it.

"Anyway... how different is it from the story of King Author?" (sic)

Arthur and your other examples (Homeric epics, and we may as well throw in Gilgamesh, Beowulf, and the rest of 'em in there as well) are mostly distinguished by their strictly structured plots (see all them books by Joseph Campbell about mythological hero archetypes - you've probably heard a lot of that before.) Anyway, they have a well defined beginning middle and end, which is what a lot of hero comics lack. There's a beginning and middle, but as long as it's a profitable going concern, there's no end. And endings are what give real dramatic and emotional power.

Yeah, I've read a bit of "Doom Patrol" and "Animal Man" not his "JLA" or "X-Men" though. I agree that Morrison's really got something going on. My favorite by him is "Invisibles" where he more or less injects the opposite meaning into the power trip fantasy - a true power trip is an anarchist utopia where everyone is infinitely free to choose their own destiny and identity. It's a pretty smart riff on the deconstruction of superheroism idea.

But I'd still rather read "Eightball" or "Frank."

[quiet man]

CSN - B*I*G Clowes fan, are we? :D
Ever read Crumb's "Mr. Natural" or Vaughn Bode?

Yes, sometimes authors of superhero comics don't know when to stop. But that may be said for other genres too. The main problem is, IMHO, greed. Mo' money, mo' money. They don't want to try something new; instead, they exploit old ideas over and over again, until everybody becomes sick with it.
As for me, the idea of spandex-clad superhumans defeating supervillains worked when I was a kid, but nowadays I want much more that that; I want dilemma, self-doubt, questions, I want my superheroes to lose every once in a while (like Hellblazer, for example). Are there any such SH-comics out there? I think so.

I'm gonna state the obvious now :D : the world of comics is very, very large. You can always find 5 comics you're gonna love, and when they start sucking @$$, you can immediately switch to 10 new, better ones. And thank God for that. So, don't grumble - start searching.

[quiet man]

Now it's time for me to act like a good local-patriot :D , and ask what do you know/think of Croatian authors, living and/or working in USA and Canada: the late Edvin Biukovic ("Deaths&Devils"), Igor Kordej ("Tarzan", Dark Horse), Esad Ribic ("Codename: Scorpio", "Four Horsemen"), Danijel Zezelj, Mirko Ilic... any of these names ring a bell? No?

BTW, you guys are a true refreshment. I'm a member of this very large Croatian comics forum; however, discussion potential there is very limited, because... well, I'm ashamed to admit it ;-), but our national comics market is very poor, both in quality and quantity. We don't have that many comics translated to Croatian, and here in Zagreb we have only one (that's right, 1) specialized comics store. I read comics in English, but many other forum members don't. So, a few comics - a few things to talk about...

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, I like Clowes a lot. But I like Woodring and Ware even better!

And although I haven't looked at Bode a whole lot, he seems pretty cool. Crumb on the other hand is an incomprable master. I can't believe he hasn't come up before now (well, maybe because he hasn't done much comix lately.)

As to folks from your part of the world, I remember when Biukovic and I think it was Ilic did their take on Matt Wagner's Grendel (Matt Wagner's another guy I think has done a lot with the superhero idea in Mage by grafting it with autobiographical comics) and they surely have some talent, but I don't know anything they've done sinse then. The guy that comes to mind for me is Alexander Zograff - isn't he from around there? I have a deep interest in surrealist/dream comics, hence my obsession with Woodring, Little Nemo, Krazy Kat, Eyebeam, Rare Bit Fiends, Promethea and so on and Zograf fits into that quite nicely. Of course, he does journalistic stuff, too.

[Chang Style Novice]

Speaking of Alan Moore, it looks like I'll be spending an assload of money again soon... (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=000156)

[Marshdrifter]

CSN:
The most serious problem with superhero comics (or superhero anything for that matter) is that the underlying theme is always going to be the same: "Wouldn't it be really cool if I could kick so much ass?!!"
I have a superpower (perhaps hero isn't the right word) story
floating around in my head where it blatantly demonstrates that
it isn't cool the main character can kick so much ass. "The Way of
the Dragon" is doing an excellent job of having someone who
kicks ass but neither he nor the situation are cool. Of course, this
theme seems to be a cleverly rehashing of the Destroyer novel
concept, but that's ok because in our more mindless moments
we actually enjoy Destroyer novels.

Design Sifu: Usually, when I go to the comic store in Chicago, I
try to pick up an interesting book I haven't read before. At the
comic shop where I live, they mostly just carry mainstream stuff
and it's not always possible to find something I haven't tried that
looks interesting. Tonight's my weekly comic run, though, so we'll
see what they've got.

[Design Sifu]

You know... this thred is like having a cool little party in my living room
Great point all around!!!


Chang Style Novice said:
Arthur and your other examples (Homeric epics, and we may as well throw in Gilgamesh, Beowulf, and the rest of 'em in there as well) are mostly distinguished by their strictly structured plots (see all them books by Joseph Campbell about mythological hero archetypes - you've probably heard a lot of that before.) Anyway, they have a well defined beginning middle and end, which is what a lot of hero comics lack. There's a beginning and middle, but as long as it's a profitable going concern, there's no end. And endings are what give real dramatic and emotional power.



Good old Jo Campbell...who said comics are just for kids!!!?

Let's talk about Myth for a second. Perticularly those stemming from an oral tradition. These tails where told & retold countless times... generation after generation. Storytellers varied and each one (as humans are want to do) added & subtracted particular details as the situation demanded. Most often for the purpose of keeping the myth relevent for that particular audience in that particular location at that particular time. What we now read are much closer to the focilized remains... But I suspect ancient Babylon (or was is Sumeria) lived in perpetual hope of the return of Gilgamesh.

I wonder if the superhero is very much our modern equivelent. The details of the myths change and are retold. One time it's Peter Parker's Uncle Ben Dying, followed by Gwen Stacey years later. Another time it's Aunt May, or Mary Jane. Or the Origen is retold & it turns out this time Mary Jane figures out he is Spiderman. Then it becomes a Movie & the Green Goblin is Normal Osborn & dies only after their first major encounter (while any comic reader know that GG haunted spiderman for a Looooooong time before his death). Still no mater the incarnation or details, the essence remains the same.
It seems when that essential aspect is changed (clone saga anyone?) the comic/myth suffer most.

That doesn't mean I disagree with what you say about publishers. But also consider the responsibility towards that Myth. Yeah Superman is own by DC comics, which is inturn own By time-warner... etc... But the Myth of superman goes well beyond the charactor with a big red S on his chest. Sometimes it's a lightning bolt, or a star or a lion's head...

Certainly Superman's much more important to a 12 year old kid with Asthma than to me... But as an "adult" there's craft to consider, technique and method. The same story can be told often sometimes greatly, othertimes horribly...

I remember one particular comic... Superman & Batman must fight Mr Myxlplx and Bat Might... the whoel adventure happens in the space of heartbeat. Bruce Wayne was being interviewed by Clark Kent at the Daily Bugel when Jimmy Olsen trips and is about to spill coffee on Bruce when time stops , the coffee in mid air. The adventures occures, ends, and they return to their placed just in time for clark to get the coffee spilled on him. Olsen oppoligises and coments "wow that was weird it was like I fell in slow motion or something... what happened?" to this clark replies...."it's called tripping Jimmy."

Now was that comic written in the '50's, '60's, 80's 90's? and was it written for a 12 year old? or someone a bit more experienced?;)

BTW... I was lucky enough to have an extended conversation with Matt Wagner on the very subject of Superhero as Myth... a very good time indeed.

Did you ever read Alan Moore's Swamp Thing? it's being collected in TPB's for any of you who haven't. Theseries continued after he left it with varring degrees of success. Mark Miller (http://www.millarworld.biz/) who now writes Ultimate X-men & the Ultimates. Wrote the final story arch of the Swamp Thing comic to great effect. Picking up from Alan Moore almost seemlessly, and completing what he started with great dramatic impact.

So yet, stories with ending are quite nice.

My favorite by him is "Invisibles" where he more or less injects the opposite meaning into the power trip fantasy - a true power trip is an anarchist utopia where everyone is infinitely free to choose their own destiny and identity.

You do know that the final volume of that 3 volume masterpiece has just been collected? Great work indeed... for more on THAT... go here! (http://www.barbelith.com/) ;)


quiet man said:
Ever read Crumb's "Mr. Natural" or Vaughn Bode?

Got really into Vaughn Bode while in highschool... Quite a few grafitti pieces where influenced by his charactors at the time. He & Raplh Bakshe created the not so great mivie WIZARDS together... rent it if you find it just for the joy of the moving charactors...

AND all of you SHOULD go home and rent CRUMB!!!
it'll change how you see the creator & his art...or not.

I want my superheroes to lose every once in a while (like Hellblazer, for example). Are there any such SH-comics out there? I think so.

Off the top of my head... Daredevil for noir.Powers for a more crime story feel in a superpowered world. New X meN of course. Xstatix for social comentary, humor, ironic not hero delemias, the cult of fame and death toll. Wildcats for interesting twists...

Hellblazer's not remotely spanex...but still kicking.


what do you know/think of Croatian authors, living and/or working in USA and Canada: the late Edvin Biukovic ("Deaths&Devils"), Igor Kordej ("Tarzan", Dark Horse), Esad Ribic ("Codename: Scorpio", "Four Horsemen"), Danijel Zezelj, Mirko Ilic... any of these names ring a bell?


"Deaths&Devils" was great, as well as the follow up Devil's choices... A loss to the form in his death.

Igor Kordej is illustraiting Soilder-X formally "CABLE" and has done some art for New X meN as well.

Loved the art in "4 Horsemen" didn't he also do "outlaw nation"?

Anyone follow Paul Pope?


Question?
what pulls you most to a given comic?

Art?
Writer?
Charactor?
Title?
Publisher?

[quiet man]

Question?
what pulls you most to a given comic?

Art?
Writer?
Charactor?
Title?
Publisher?

I'd have to sum it all up in one word - feel. My taste in comics is very broad, as you might have noticed :D . I'm very openminded, i.e. I don't ask (not until after reading it) who the author is or what's it about. If, after putting down a comic book, I go "Wow... that was GREAT... It gave me goosebumps!", then I'm happy. Hope I'm making sense here...
Don't get me wrong - I have favourite artists and writers and characters and titles and everything, but my one single most favourite thing about comics is - well, (good) comics.

Design Sifu - no, of course Hellblazer doesn't wear spandex (he'd look ridiculous :D ), but he knows the meaning of defeat. After all, he's got cancer... and although that may be a bit drastic, that's what I'm talking about.

"Swamp Thing": yeah, read it a little, like it a lot. Remember that story with the werewolf kid? Man, that was ScArY...

CSN - I don't know about Zograff, but he sound like a Russian to me. :confused:
BTW, it was Darko Macan that did "Grendel" with Biukovic.

Keep it coming, guys... loving every minute of this.

edit -

CSN, bring Iggy back!!! :D

[Chang Style Novice]

I did a little checking around, and Zograff is a Serb. Maybe a Russian descended Serb (couldn't be sure) but Serbia is where he lives and works.

I am pulled into a comic by the art and writing equally, I'd say, although there are certainly some publishers with a higher quotient of good results for me. Fantagraphics, Drawn and Quarterly, Cartoon Books, Dark Horse Mavericks, etc. That doesn't mean that I'm not open to new creators or companies, of course.

I'm gonna stick with pups for awhile - I can't have one myself on account of poverty and living arrangements, so I'll be stealing images from dog rescue sites. This guy is named "Waylon" and is in a foster home in Houston courtesy Lone Star Boxer Rescue. I wish I could take him home!

[Kristoffer]

pizda suka idanacho
lol

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
Question?
what pulls you most to a given comic?

Art?
Writer?
Charactor?
Title?
Publisher?
Mostly the storyline, but the art is also important. I like an
interesting and entertaining storyline. I like interesting art, but
there is sometimes art that, while I enjoy it, makes it hard to
understand what's going on in the story. I tend to float towards
certain publishers but that's mostly because certain publishers
have a tendancy to put out what I enjoy. Title? Most of the titles
I like are done by one author and when that author leaves, the
title ends (or vice versa).

[Kristoffer]

The art is really important. But there needs to be a close balance between art and storyline. It can be stunning art but boring story or great story but u get put off by the semi-crappy art.

[Design Sifu]

Yeah.. Art's very important to me as well... it can save a weak story... however a really BAD story can kill the best art.

On the other hand a really good story can certainly transend all but the absolutely WORST art!!!

Homework:
picked up the comic XIN (http://anarchy-studios.com/xin/teaser/) missed the 1st issue which seems quite hard to locate but picked up #2.

basicly a Manga-fied version of the Monkey King's tail...er tail.

Beautiful art, with a heavy CGI influence, which blends will with the manga style. The Kungfu's very stylised (still on the quest for some authentic KUNGFU illustration in comics) and the story's on the lite side. but still a fun read... not sure if I'll pick up another issue or wait for a Trade paperback.

anyone else find anything good out there?

[Design Sifu]

Hey!!!

Did everyone suddenly stop reading comics?

Wassup?

[quiet man]

Well, I'm still here... just ran out of things to say, I guess.

No, I did't find anything good recently... but then again, I was somewhat broke due to X-mas and New Year gift-shopping :D... no money, no comics :-(((

Here's one suggestion, anyway: any of you read Frezzato's "Keeper of the Maser" series? Published in "Heavy Metal" (back when I used to buy the stuff) and in hardcover albums... strongly recommend it

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by Design Sifu Hey!!!

Did everyone suddenly stop reading comics?

Wassup?
Or maybe we're too busy reading our comics to actually post. :)

For the most part, I'm just reading the stuff I've already
mentioned. I did pick up a copy of Marc Hempel's Naked Brain. It's
not too bad.

[Design Sifu]

heh... picked up a few cool books today...

including Way of the Rat

as for Marc Hemple... haven't read any of his stuff since GREGORY which by the way ROCKED!!!

how's his stuff now?

[Chang Style Novice]

Gregory did indeed rock! As did Herman the Vermin.

If you can find it, you should seek out his self published thing from a few years back, "Tug and Buster." Funny stuff!

I didn't know he had anything new out. MUST FIND!

[Serpent]

Wow! Comic talk. Can't believe I missed this till now.

As for superheroes, I'm a big Batman fan, but that's all really.

Alan Moore is by far the best writer in comics. New series coming from him soon, Cemetery is it called? Can't remember. Anyone read the Promethea books? They're great.

I'm also a fan of Chuck Dixon and I think Way Of The Rat is excellent. However, it's going beyond it's initally scheduled run and most books that do that end up crap... we'll see.

Gaiman and McKean are also great comic dudes.

The most important thing in a comic book is definitely story, 2nd is to have it backed up by good art. If you've got those things then I don't care who did it! ;)

[quiet man]

D@mn, he's found us even here! Is no thread safe from the cartoonish super-villain Serpent (a.k.a. "Don't call me Bruce")? :D ;)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by quiet man
D@mn, he's found us even here! Is no thread safe from the cartoonish super-villain Serpent (a.k.a. "Don't call me Bruce")? :D ;)

Of course not! I'm omnipotent!

[MonkeyBoy]

Sandman.

Bone.

*Hellboy.

Those Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers.

Zippy the Pinhead.

Mr Natural.

*- Vin Diesel will be Hellboy in the upcoming flick, he's also doing a sequel to Pitch Black.

[quiet man]

Originally posted by Serpent


Of course not! I'm omnipotent!

You're IMPOTENT?! Omigosh :eek:

Soo sorry to hear that, mate :D ;) ...

- - -

Keanu Reeves will appear as John Constantine in "Constantine", movie based on "Hellblazer". Read it here (www.joblo.com/movienews/1022.htm).
What do you think?
Good choice? Bad choice (I think so)? Who the heck is Keanu Reeves :D ?

[Chang Style Novice]

Vin Diesel?!!? **** that ****! Whatever happened to Ron Perlman?

edit -

Well, according to imdb and aicn, it's still Perlman, so I guess I can relax.

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Gregory did indeed rock! As did Herman the Vermin.

If you can find it, you should seek out his self published thing from a few years back, "Tug and Buster." Funny stuff!

I didn't know he had anything new out. MUST FIND!
This is issue #3, but I can't find a copyright date anywhere
on it to know when this came out. It's got an assortment of
different things in it including "Tug and Buster" and "Victim
Victoria."

I haven't read any of the Gregory stuff. I mostly know his
work from when he worked on "The Sandman."

That said, I didn't find "Naked Brain" all that funny. It was
enjoyable enough to give me a smirk every now and again,
but I find Jhonen Vasquez's later work and Phil Foglio's work
to be funnier.

[Design Sifu]

I remember picking up the 1st issue of Tug & Buster... wasn't that impressed...

I still think the GREGORY stuff is top notch... though I should take a look at Naked Brain.

Promethea ROCKS!!!! beyond belief... easily top 5 material!!!

Have any of you seen
Vertigo POPLONGON?

Now that's a hilarious read, with great art as well... check it out!!!

Just saw XXX... what a laugh...

PITCH BLACK rocked though, so here's hoping for a good enough sequel.

speaking of sequels... any of you see the X2 trailers? I'm hopeful...

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
Promethea ROCKS!!!! beyond belief... easily top 5 material!!!
Hmm... I've been eyeing it, but haven't read one
yet. Maybe I'll have to pick up a copy today.

Have any of you seen
Vertigo POPLONGON?
No, but I have the first three from PopTokyo. I never
did see the fourth one on the shelves, so I didn't get
it.

[Design Sifu]

Several trade paper backs of PROMETHEA are available... SO totally worth picking up, start with book 1...

but the Most recient issue is the begining of a new story line... it's got a painted cover of a ...oh, just look for your self (http://www.dccomics.com/directcurrents/comics/dec_02/images/pic_medprom24cvr.jpg)

Yeah...

Vertigo POP: TOKYO was fun... issue 4 WAS hard to find....

Vertigo POP:LONDON is even BETTER!!! issue #3 just came out #1 should still be available!!!

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
Several trade paper backs of PROMETHEA are available... SO totally worth picking up, start with book 1...

but the Most recient issue is the begining of a new story line... it's got a painted cover of a ...oh, just look for your self (http://www.dccomics.com/directcurrents/comics/dec_02/images/pic_medprom24cvr.jpg)
I picked up that issue last night. It's pretty interesting, but has
potential of being a little superhero-y for my tastes. I'll give it
another couple of issues to decide.

Vertigo POP: TOKYO was fun... issue 4 WAS hard to find....

Vertigo POP:LONDON is even BETTER!!! issue #3 just came out #1 should still be available!!!
Yeah, I figure a lot of people got spooked when #3 ended with
the 16yo Japanese girl stripping down to presumably screw her
captive rock star. I haven't seen any of Pop:London at my local
store. I think they got too worried from the Tokyo one. Hell, I'm
surprised they didn't put the latest League of Extraordinary
Gentlemen in a plastic bag.

[Design Sifu]

They bagged LOEG at the shop I go to... but then again they do the same thing with The FILTH...rightly so as the shop is walking distance from a highschool...

should I even mention how BAD@ss LOEG is???

An Yeah, the recient issue of Promethea is a bit more superheroish... but I think it's to offset the Mindbending storyline that only just ended the issue before...

Still, the ART!!! man, the ART!!!

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
They bagged LOEG at the shop I go to... but then again they do the same thing with The FILTH...rightly so as the shop is walking distance from a highschool...
All the issues of LOEG or just the latest one? The latest one
should've been bagged, but the others seemed fine to me.

should I even mention how BAD@ss LOEG is???
You could, but this is pretty much a given.
I gotta read me some Jules Verne.

An Yeah, the recient issue of Promethea is a bit more superheroish... but I think it's to offset the Mindbending storyline that only just ended the issue before...

Still, the ART!!! man, the ART!!!
Yeah, I really dug the Crusades era sections, but the present
day section didn't strike me as anything above what I expected
of it.

[Design Sifu]

Well just the latest issue of LOEG was bagged...

& Yeah.. there's some great notes (http://www.geocities.com/jessnevins/league4.html) here...

[Serpent]

Keanu as John Constantine!?!?! NNNOOOOOOOO!!!!!

AAAARRRGGGHHHHHH!

*sob*

[Design Sifu]

um what?

I last heard that Nick Cage was going for the part before the project tanked...

Now Keanu???

How about a link eh?

[quiet man]

'Ow about this one? (www.joblo.com/movienews/1022.htm) Or this one? (www.themovieinsider.com/previews/index.php?search=Constantine&field=movtitle) Here's another one (www.superherohype.com/constantine/)...

I'm not very fond of Cage either, but Keanu??? Ewwwww!!!
I'm thinking Kevin Spacey (he may not look like Constantine, but he's one d@mn fine actor) or maybe Colin Farrell...

[Design Sifu]

Constantine should be played by the person he was modeled after!!!

STING!!!

[cho]

does anyone here read kung fu comics?

I like Storm Riders, a classic.

I just picked up Story of the Tao and the Crouching Tiger comic, both are good.

[Design Sifu]

funny you mention it... the fine folks at comicsONE (http://comicsone.com/) just paid us a visit in the office and droped of a few VERY FINE reads... Story of TAO as well as stormriders & a couple of more!!!

Great stuff Great stuff!!!!

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by cho
does anyone here read kung fu comics?

I like Storm Riders, a classic.

I just picked up Story of the Tao and the Crouching Tiger comic, both are good.
I had seen an ad for their stuff, but I haven't been able
to find it in my area. Someday, perhaps.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by quiet man
'Ow about this one? (www.joblo.com/movienews/1022.htm) Or this one? (www.themovieinsider.com/previews/index.php?search=Constantine&field=movtitle) Here's another one (www.superherohype.com/constantine/)...

I'm not very fond of Cage either, but Keanu??? Ewwwww!!!
I'm thinking Kevin Spacey (he may not look like Constantine, but he's one d@mn fine actor) or maybe Colin Farrell...

What a terrible, terrible shame. :(

[Design Sifu]

I had seen an ad for their stuff, but I haven't been able to find it in my area. Someday, perhaps.

well you could always order online... (http://comicsone.com/)
They're even offering PDF samples.

Oh... and I just read the latest issue of New X meN

KICK @SS!!!

[Marshdrifter]

Went on a little resource procurement run to Chicago this
past weekend (Ok, I really went to visit friends and see a
concert, but trips to Chicago always involve getting a lot of
otherwise unobtainable swag like comics and CDs) and ended
up getting the Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon graphic novel.
It's really good. I'm looking forward to future issues. I was
also eyeing the Cowboy Bebop books. They don't seem to be
the same stories as found on the DVDs, or at least the two
discs I've seen.

[cho]

Originally posted by Marshdrifter
I was
also eyeing the Cowboy Bebop books. They don't seem to be
the same stories as found on the DVDs, or at least the two
discs I've seen.
Yeah, anime and manga run different stories of the same characters. You might want to check out RealBout High School, if you can find it. It's about a high school where martial arts are BIG part of extracurricular activities, students can challenge each other to "K-Fights". I picked up mine at Borders and B&N.

There are some episodes of it on DVD, the stories also being a bit different from the manga. I like the manga better, it's more martial art focused.

[quiet man]

Any info on this year's Angouleme winner "Jimmy Corrigan"? Anybody read it?














SAVE THIS THREAD!!! :D

[Chang Style Novice]

re: "Jimmy Corrigan."

I've been following the career of Chris Ware for about fifteen years, since his undergraduate days in the art department at UT (where I am ...sigh... STILL an undergrad in the art department.) Chris is simply one of the greatest comics writers and artists in the history of the medium, and I'm not just saying that out of Longhorn Pride. "Jimmy Corrigan" has been in the works for literally years - probably close to a decade, or even more - and is one of the very few true graphics novels yet published. I italicize novel because the depth of feeling, precise characterization, and insight into the human condition demonstrated by this work truly makes it a masterpiece on the level of the very greatest in world fiction. The artwork, which is equally deep, precise, and insightful is also simple, elegant, and gorgeous. Most of the material in "Jimmy Corrigan" originated in Ware's irregular (in schedule, but also in size shape and format) comic book "The Acme Novelty Library" published by Fantagraphics Books. "Jimmy Corrigan" is a little more traditional in style and format than some of Ware's earlier, wildly experimental stuff, but it still rewards close reading and an intimate understanding of the medium. In fact, it so smartly straddles the line between artsy and down-to-earth that it would also function as a fine educational tool for showing the incredible potential of the sequential art form.

If memory serves, the softcover of "Jimmy Corrigan" is about $35. It's a bargain at twice the price. If you just can't get enough of the guy, he also does freelance work as a graphic designer (you'll see the g.d. influence in his comics.) One recent project of his is the reprints of "The Complete Krazy Kat Sunday Strips" which are also published by Fantagraphics, and you should buy those because Krazy Kat is effing brilliant. George Herriman is one of those few comics artists that I would place on the same plane as Chris Ware.

To sum up...no joke, man, them books is the bomb diggy.

And if you think I'm frontin' about being an ol' skool Chris Ware head, just check my earlier posts on this thread. I mention "Acme Novelty Library" in my first post, and Chris Ware a few days later.

[quiet man]

Wow, thnx CSN man.

I think I couldn't get a better answer even if I paid for it ;). I'll be sure to pick up a copy of JC after this...

[Design Sifu]

Yeah... Thought the Acme Novelty Library rocked...

went to APE (the Alternative Press Expo) the other weekend and had a blast!!!

Tons of great stuff, very independant and inspiring...

In terms of Namedropping... the best I can do is claim that I attended the same Advertising Art & Design program at the same school as John (Amazing Spiderman) Romita Jr.
not that I ever met him or anything... but I did have the Wife of Bob Rozakas (DC comics V.P. of some eyar ago) as an english teacher...

... did I mention she was pretty HOT as well? :p

[quiet man]

A Croatian publisher recently started printing Ultimate Spiderman & Ultimate X-men series (3 issues so far). What say you guys?

I like:
Adam Kubert's artwork (I almost wrote 'aardvark :eek: ; what would Sigmund Freud think?! :D )
Don't like:
rewriting history (I mean, where's Gwen Stacy and her death - very important)
Peter looks like Harry Potter :mad:

DesignSifu - :D ;) @ english teacher...
Mine was a total dawg :( . Come to think of it, I never had a hot teacher in all my life; average ones at best...

[Design Sifu]

Yeah I admit it... I had a :p for such a :cool: teacher...

On Ultimate marvel:
Re writing History was a risk... I think the Goal of distilling the essance of those charactors & making them more pertenate to current time worthy. Sometime a success Sometimes not.

Still you have to admit that there is alot of History that is better left forgotten... clone saga anyone?

If you come accross The Ultimates you might want to check it out. It's prettymuch everything that's best about the Ultimate line in one book.

Not to fond of the Aardvark artwork or the art for Ultimate Spiderman. However at least the Spiderman art's been consistant. While the Kuberts' have been quite erratic.

Still I can't stop recommeding New X meN!!!

Inother news... Joe Sacco just came out with a new TPB... has anyone checked out his stuff since his name last was mentioned?

[Chang Style Novice]

Been too broke to get anything new in ages. It's that art school thing.

But I couldn't possible give two shoots about X-Men or Spider-man anyway at this point in my life. Joe Sacco, now that I could get into.

[quiet man]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Been too broke to get anything new in ages. It's that art school thing.

Same here... except for me it's that law school thing... :(

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
But I couldn't possible give two shoots about X-Men or Spider-man anyway at this point in my life. Joe Sacco, now that I could get into.

Speaking of old Spidey: I think I wouldn't mind spending some money on "The Essential Spiderman". Not very expensive here either - cca 125 HRK (~ 16$).
And Joe Sacco... currently n/a in my local comics store... have to order it...

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, if I won the lottery, I'd be more than happy to burn a bunch of cash on hardcover reprints of the classic Ditko stuff. What I don't care about at all is the current book.

[quiet man]

Seems like this thread has a "do not resuscitate" sign... oh well...

Just picked a copy of Ultimate Marvel Team Up (published here in Croatia). Spiderman/X-men was rather disappointing, but Spiderman/FF was hilarious. Electra's costume that says "I die alot" on the front, ads for Sensitive Thor and Return of the Black Costume ("word!" :D ), Skrull leader screaming about using up all exclamation marks in the world... it cracked me up. And who was that guy talking about saving the entire comics industry? Was it Marvel's notorious Jim Shooter?

C'mon you guys, work with me ;)

[Serpent]

Has anybody been reading Lau's "Xin: Legend of the Monkey King" series? It was a 3 issue mini-series, now to be followed by a an ongoing "Journey of the Monkey King" title. Kind of a Manga/Dragonball retake on the old legend.

What did you think of it?

Anyone?

Bueller?

[SevenStar]

cowboy bebop is classic. There won't be anything like it again, I bet. Have you seen the movie "Knockin on Heaven's Door" yet?

[SevenStar]

Dunno if anyone's mentioned the "New Mutants" yet (haven't read the whole thread), but I used to love them. I hate that they disbanded and started the X-Force.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by cho
does anyone here read kung fu comics?

I like Storm Riders, a classic.

I just picked up Story of the Tao and the Crouching Tiger comic, both are good.

Was it related to the movie? If so, was it better? I hated the movie.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Marshdrifter:

and no wonder! I left out the 'n'

http://www.mnftiu.com


check out episode 20

[Design Sifu]

I picked up issues #2,#3...

Fun & beautiful art for sure... but a bit too Manga for my tastes...

I'm actually liking WAY of THE RAT much more.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
I picked up issues #2,#3...

Fun & beautiful art for sure... but a bit too Manga for my tastes...

I'm actually liking WAY of THE RAT much more.

Yep, that's exactly how I felt. WOTR is great, Chuck Dixon is a legend.

I got the first installment of the Crouching Tiger comic the other day. I thought that was simply awful! Very disappointing.

[Design Sifu]

BATMAN: Hong Kong


DC has announced that legendary Hong Kong comics creator Tony Wong will team up with veteran Batman scribe Doug Moench for an original, 4-color hardcover graphic novel, entitled BATMAN: HONG KONG. Scheduled for June release, this 128-page epic takes Batman from his Gotham City home to the other side of the globe for a "truly international adventure."

"Tony's art combines linework, dazzling color and painterly techniques, and he provides everything from layouts to separations," says Group Editor Andy Helfer. "Tony practically invented the comics business in Hong Kong, so we're very pleased to have him on board and working with the tremendously talented Doug Moench on this amazing story."

BATMAN: HONG KONG begins when the Dark Knight discovers a serial killer who uses streaming video to broadcast his vicious executions via the internet. To put a stop to these brutal slayings, Batman travels to Hong Kong, where he gets caught in the middle of a feud between two brothers: one, the head of a local gang of criminals, the other, the chief of police! Now, the Dark Knight's only hope may be Hong Kong's own super-hero, the mysterious Night Dragon.

BATMAN: HONG KONG is a 128-page, 4-color, hardcover graphic novel scheduled to reach comic book stores in June.


For those of you unfamiliar with Tony Wong... some of his books include The Legendary Couple (http://www.comicsone.com/kungfu/legendary/), Mega Dragon & Tiger (http://www.comicsone.com/kungfu/megaDragon/) and Weapons of the Gods (http://www.comicsone.com/kungfu//weaponsOfGods/) .

Could be interesting...

[cho]

Originally posted by SevenStar


Was it related to the movie? If so, was it better? I hated the movie.

The movie was based on the fourth of five books. the comics take place before the movie. I haven't read any of the books, so I can't say if they are true to the original or anything. I can't even find them in English.

[quiet man]

(The subject pretty much says it all :D ;) ...)

Treat yourself to some brand new and expensive comics, why don't ya? ;)

[Design Sifu]

My Girlfriend took me out Comic Shopping actually...
We had a great time & I picked out some nice tidbits...

Stromriders:
anyone interested in checking out the english versions should go here.. (http://comicsone.com/)

[quiet man]

Man, I wish I had a girlfriend like that... heck, I wish I had a girlfriend, period :( :D ...

Anyway, you guys heard about LOEG: The Movie (www.corona.bc.ca/films/details/loeg.html )? See also here (www.killermovies.com/l/leagueofextraordinarygentlemen/).

[Design Sifu]

LOEG:

yeah I've been watching some of it's development with mixed feelings...

on the one hand I'm hopeful and the fanboy in me is totally jazzed at the thought of it hitting the big screen.

On the other hand I worry... especially after seeing how FROM HELL was treated. An amazing book by Mr. Moore turned into a barely recognisable movie...

[Design Sifu]

Though not exactly a part of his Utility Belt, Batman's silken rope was another on of the Dark Knight's most powerful tools. Equipped with a grappling hook (easily bought for under $30 at most stores handling mountain climbing gear, as well as many internet shops that specialize in ninja accessories), the slender line offered Batman a silent and secret method to scale buildings without being seen by his enemies inside.

Learn more in The Science of Superheroes (http://www.nature.com/nsu/030310/030310-3.html)

[quiet man]

Now, if they could only hire Catwoman as a 'got qi' girl... meoooowww :D :cool:




From Hell - didn't read the book, but I kinda liked the movie. You say it's no good? Elaborate, please ;) :)

[Design Sifu]

I didn't hate the movie... but it was a pale shadow of the book... which I would seriously recomend.

it's no easy read though, be warned... it's a heavily researched piece written in the dilect of the time. Much of the first quarter sets the stage, introduces many of the charactors... the most significant of which is London's whitechapel district itself.

We get to see the childhood & development of Dr. William Gull... as well as much of the masonic activities that where briefly touched upon from the film.

Johnny Depp's charactor was actually 2 charactors in the book, both of whome aren't introduced until much later.

When the "killings" start the story follows much of Gull's activities... though to be honest the book is very much about the people of whitechaple and their effect on that time period as well as that time period's effect on it's people. Tabloid Journalism, upper class vs. lower class, social climate, arcitecture.

What's "scary" in the book was (for me) the level of ignorance commonly displayed. There's one scene where someone suggests "dusting for fingerprints" (a method not previously used at that time) only to be dismissed as a loon for wanting to make a bigger mess of the already messy crime scene. these ironies pepper the book.

Then there's the weird mystical aspects as experienced by Dr. Gull leading him to believe he gave birth to the 20th century. This was also lightly touched up in the film but was deminished by a lack of context & background. There's a much more logicial progression from Gull's masonic initiation-to royal doctor-to Jack the Ripper.

A heavy read and one that could only have been achieved through the medium of comics. Also there's an appendix included that's easily about 1/5th the size of the whole story. Every Panel on every page is explained, referenced and or translated. Like a said, a heavily researched book.

find it (http://www.eddiecampbellcomics.com/fromhell/) . . .

[Aren]

I've read the "From Hell" comic books and I agree with you. The comics are so much better than the movie was, even though I liked the movie alot thanks to mr. Ian Holm.

Also Sandman is another intellectual comic out there. Following the events that happen to the fates ( dream, desire, death etc.)
The comics really give a ride for their money. They're well scripted and drawn and they present really good ideas of the christian religion and also other ones as well.

[Design Sifu]

Yeah, Sandman was a classic... a bit dated though upon reflection... still worth the read for sure...

and if you've got the $$$ and are inclined to, the collected TPBs are worth adding you your library...

The art was all over the place but overall matched the tone of the given stories quie well... I'll probably re-read the sereis sometime soon... it's one of those series that can be re-read often.

I understand Neil gaiman will be coming out with a hardcover special. Sandman: ENDLESS NIGHTS (http://www.milehighcomics.com/dcpreview/endless/adpage.html) with plenty of hot artists from around the globe. Might make it onto my X-mas list...
;)

[Design Sifu]

Just came accross some preview pages of BATMAN: Hong Kong (http://www.milehighcomics.com/dcpreview/hongkong/adpage.html)

This looks pretty hot!!! anyone else amiluar with Tony Wong's stuff?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
Just came accross some preview pages of BATMAN: Hong Kong (http://www.milehighcomics.com/dcpreview/hongkong/adpage.html)

This looks pretty hot!!! anyone else amiluar with Tony Wong's stuff?

No, but I can't wait for this one!

[Design Sifu]

I think I mentioned it a page back or so... but you can check out some of Toney Wong's titles here. (http://www.comicsone.com/kungfu/legendary/)

[swordsoul]

HI gang! Sorry i gotta admit i'm thoroughly a newbie at comics, although i do enjoy them (i wanted to draw them for a living back in the day, haha) Um, i enjoyed the Neon Genesis Evangelion show, and i understand the comics are the same, just more detailed. by the way NGE blew me totally away.


also, i took a GREAT gamble on this: i think you guys would totally totally dig Lone Wolf and Cub.
The best way i can describe it is Take Alfred Hitch**** with all his ironies and plot twists, and replace the sci-fi/ supernatural elements with the bushido code. It's so AWESOME!! honestly. I never am one to 'collect' but i own half the graphic novels. At ten bucks a pop you get about 3 or 4 hundred pages of marvelous story. It's so good i can't explain how good it is :D also, any one who reads Blade of the Immortal could they give some suggestions on how to start? (what issue, where to catch up)

i agree with jumping in the middle of a series is the reason a lot of people DON'T read comics...


peaceloveunity
matt

[swordsoul]

Oh man that's so awesome. one of you guys shouts the word "****" and it doesn't bleep it.. but it bleeps alfred Hitch****

for the totally uninitiated, i was speaking of ALFRED HITCHCAWK. lololololololol!!!!!!

(btw, i don't think i'm being beligerent? it should bleep the f word yes?)

anywho, back to lone wolf and cub and comics :p

[Design Sifu]

Long Wolf & Cub is a rocking Read . . .

[Chang Style Novice]

I've just talked the teacher of my "Issues in art since 1968" teacher into accepting a term paper on the small press comics of the 80s and 90s.

WOO HOO!

PS: Swordsoul - if you know the secret "closed door" vB Code techniques, you can swear with mother****ing impunity, and speak of Alfred Hitch****, the ****zu ***** you adopted, or the genus **** sapiens if you want. It's really quite easy.

[Liokault]

LOL I love comics.

Cerabus rules.


The Frank Miller Dare Devil comins were really cool....he kind of rewrote Dare Devils past and brought in a ninja master (a broken down old man) to teack him.

UK Comics are also very good but you wont see them in the USA.

[Design Sifu]

I jsut started reading Dardevil again and am quite enjoying it...

it's got a nice NYPD blue sort of feel...

The Art which initially turned me off it quite good.

and with a recient guest appearance by Luke sweet christmas Cage: HERO for HIRE what could be better...!!!

well, yeah there IS better, but it's been a good read...

:P

[Vapour]

Comic translated into English
- Parasite, Blade of Immortal.

Comic which is not translated but are made into film
- Ichi the killer

Watch the film if you dare.

[Design Sifu]

film = live action?

or film= Anime

[quiet man]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
I jsut started reading Dardevil again and am quite enjoying it...

it's got a nice NYPD blue sort of feel...



Do you mean the TV show (with Dennis :mad: Franz)? Because that show sucked hairy sweaty decomposing etc etc.

Seriously, if that's the case - big turn-off.

[Design Sifu]

I never watched the show... I only heard the hype on how it was supposed to be...

I'm comparing DD to that...

The "gritty" NY drama with crime-bosses, lawyers, news-paper people.... oh and the main guy dresses in red leather to kick the crap out of people...

The representations of how he experiences his world are solid & there's a maturity to how concepts are presented.

Example:
After discovering DD's secret identity, a former super foe shows up at Matt Murdock's law office to retire, unable to continue a career as a superfoe knowing that all the times DareDevil's beaten him, in reality he was being beaten by a blind man.

[Budokan]

I've started to get back into comics after about a 10 year hiatus. I'm a big CrossGen fan, particularly The Path and Ruse.

I used to be a huge spider-man fan. Picked up a couple of ASM the other day and was distressed to see John Romita Jr. still attempting to pencil the book. Jeez. His people all look like waterheads. What is it with him and pumpkinheaded people with stick-like arms and legs? He's certainly not a chip off John Romita Sr., that's for godd*mn sure.

Anybody else like Romita Jr's work?

[Design Sifu]

Yeah I can certainly see what you mean by melon heads...

but there's something about it I like... a sort of consistancy where people like like individual faces yet there's a consistant "style" that carries over every aspect. His backgrounds are great & his story telling's classic...

THe writting has gone down hill though so I had to drop the book.
What's the deal with RUSE & The Path?
The only CROSS-GEN title I'm picking up is Way of the Rat which is a blast... have you seen it? the first TPB just came out.

[Serpent]

Way Of The Rat is awesome, but we've talked about that in this thread before. I'm also reading The Path. Almost gave it up at around issue 5 or 6 cos it was kinda swamping and not going anywhere, but it picked up again. I'm still keeping it on report, but I'm enjoying it a lot more again now.

And of course, it's been mentioned numerous times throughout this thread, but I have to bring it up again. Lone Wolf & Cub. Bloody fantastic. (I know you're a fan too, Budokan). I'm up to volume 21 out of 28; nearly there. Man, it looks fantastic all lined up on a shelf together and such brilliant stories and art.

*drooooool*

:)

[Budokan]

Yeah, Way of the Rat isn't too bad. It's written in the general style of many KF movies: light-hearted and fun with the right touches of drama added in for flavor. And I'm still not a big fan. However, I do like the Silken Ghost who appears in Way of Rat and I hear SG is gonna have a mini title for 5-6 issues exploring her origin.

Of course, Lone Wolf and Cub are the best comics I've read in a long, long time. Perhaps ever. Story telling, artwork, characterization are all tops. I'm only up to volume 15, but you're right they look great all lined up on my bookshelf. I'm planning on finishing out the series late this year or early next.

I see what you mean about the continuity of Romita Jr's artwork, but I still don't like it. And the point about the storyline is a good one; it has gone downhill. Then again, I've never forgiven Marvel for killing off Gwen Stacey so it's an uphill battle for them to make me happy...!

I'm not much into superheros anymore which is one of the reasons I've gravitated towards CrossGen.

[tsunami surfer]

Is anyone reding this comic series The Path by Cross Generation comics. I'm not much of a comic fan except for Heavy Metal. This series is great. They also have another series called Brath which is also very good. I just wish the books were longer

[PHILBERT]

I don't care for The Path that much. The artwork is pretty good and the story telling is too. However I am just reading it to...well...read it. I don't like starting a comic series then just stop reading it in the middle




Now Way of the Rat, that is a funny comic.

[Design Sifu]

I know it (comics) has a Cult following, but not for the same reasons(as The Matrix). Comics aren't exactly known for their ability convey a mystical experience to the reader. They are Soap-Operas for boys.


Chang Style Novice:
No, not quite for the same reasons. After all, they're digging into different themes.

As for the second part of that statement - don't make me come over there and hurt you! Comics have been inspiring people to think and act in particular ways as long as movies have and probably longer. For every Star Wars and Matrix you bring up, I have an X-Men, Spider Man and Batman I can bring to the table. And for every Un Chien Andalou and Schindler's List you have, I can haul out Ghost World and Maus.

But now I'm really digressing - suffice it to say that different media have different strengths and weaknesses. For the most part the strength of movies is enveloping the senses and the strength of comics is manipulating the perception of time.

Thought I would mention this here... anyone else have comments/thoughts on that exchange?

[quiet man]

Originally posted by Design Sifu



Chang Style Novice:
No, not quite for the same reasons. After all, they're digging into different themes.

As for the second part of that statement - don't make me come over there and hurt you! Comics have been inspiring people to think and act in particular ways as long as movies have and probably longer. For every Star Wars and Matrix you bring up, I have an X-Men, Spider Man and Batman I can bring to the table. And for every Un Chien Andalou and Schindler's List you have, I can haul out Ghost World and Maus.

But now I'm really digressing - suffice it to say that different media have different strengths and weaknesses. For the most part the strength of movies is enveloping the senses and the strength of comics is manipulating the perception of time.

Thought I would mention this here... anyone else have comments/thoughts on that exchange?

Yes, I have a comment:

PUHH-LEASE!

Master Killer, here's a newsflash for you: comics are art. And like in every art, in comics you can find both trash and quality stuff. CSN says it the way it is: try reading Art Spiegelman's Maus and then come back and call it a soap opera for boys. I'm so sick of people insulting things they don't understand, of people who read 2 copies of Superman in their lifetime and think they know comics inside out. 'Yeah, comics are for kids', 'Martial arts are about flying and ripping hearts out', 'Royce would choke everybody' (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist :D)... got prejudice?

Oh, and 'soap opera for BOYS'? I'm sure Roberta Gregory would disagree :D

[swordsoul]

Lone Wolf and Cub is just... whew... man... whew... oh yeah..oohhh yeah

I wasn't that big of a comics guy till Lone Wolf and Cub.. i'm up to 12 and it's my first endeavor as a "collector" (magic the gathering cards are what i collect if anything and even that =$$$$$$$)

However, i look through the latest Way of the Rat whenever i'm in Walden books or Barnes and Noble.... and everytime im like "should i?..." then "naaahhh maybe next time..."

Is Way of the Rat easy to pick up? need i know the backstory before grabbing some?

unity
matt

[Design Sifu]

Way of the RAT is to Lone WOLF & CUB

Like

Jackie Chan's Drunken Master... or maybe Fearless Hyena is to Akira kurisowi's er... Lone wold 7 cub... AKA Babycarage from Hell or some such.

WAY OF THE RAT's very accessable & the first year's adventures have just been collected into one book.

However the latest issue starts a new storyline so you easily jump into that one & if you like it, pick up the collect book.

[Budokan]

"Comics aren't exactly known for their ability convey a mystical experience to the reader. They are Soap-Operas for boys."

This statement illuminates your extreme ignorance in thinking that comics are little more than "funny books", when in fact they're an accepted and well-respected art form in virtually every other country than the one which invented them....thanks to close-minded dips like yourself.

[Design Sifu]

"when in fact they're an accepted and well-respected art form in virtually every other country than the one which invented them...."

there's a decient arguement (http://www.scottmccloud.com/store/books/uc.html) to be made for "comics" preceeding the Printing press and it's rise to popularity, and it's commonly accepted form, in the U.S.

[MasterKiller]

when in fact they're an accepted and well-respected art form in virtually every other country than the one which invented them....thanks to close-minded dips like yourself.

:rolleyes:

Go sing it on the mountain, brother.

[Design Sifu]

read any interesting comics lately?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the form of writing with-in a comic medium.

[MasterKiller]

Personally, I have nothing against the comic format. I used to read them. I collected Savage Sword of Conan for many years (which I still own), and my older brother has a storage shed full of mint DC comics, which I read throughout my childhood/teenage years. I was a big Hal Jordan fan as a kid. I haven't read anything really for about 10 years, other than a handful of Star Wars comics and some Green Lantern stuff.

They are entertaining. Yes. But the Super Hero medium in of itself is not art. My quote about Soap-Opera's was a reference to someone else talking about X-Men having similar Cult followings to movies Star Wars and Matrix, which you posted out of context.

My point was that while many people follow Super-Hero genre comics, the story-lines and characters are not developed to intentionally provide the reader with a Metaphysical experience. My contention was that Star Wars and Matrix are as popular as they are because they try, through a popular medium, to provide metaphysical philosophy (though very "pop") to the masses. People pick up on the deeper elements, and this gives them something to latch onto initially as a stepping stone to deeper introspective pursuits.

A whole generation was introduced to basic Zen concepts from Star Wars, whether they know it or not. Can you say the same for Superman, or Wolverine?

The "artistic" comics being talked about are probably less mainstream than the ones I am familiar with. I agree that people can elevate any medium into a valid artistic state through intent, but I would question anyone that says they have had exposure to the metaphysical, and gained a sense of the metaphysical, through a super-hero genre comic.

[ShaolinWood]

Yea, I LOOOOVE comics.
I'm a comic artist/animator, and although I'm a die hard Chen stylist and proud of it, my favaroute comic is Blade of the Immortal, the tale of Manji: A ronin who has to kill a 1000 bad men te gain mortality. The drawings are beyond amazing! Done by Hiroaki Samura and sold by Darkhorse. I would suggest buyin graphic novels cause the loose comics are a bit vague: The story line isn't action packed the whole time and there is lots of interesting well directed conversation.

A must have!

Also who Loves FLCL? yes its anime, not comics but **** isn't it great? I'm not one who jumps to every thing from a Japanese rack, but this is the best ever animation according to me! (Till provin wrong - Please prove me wrong)

Why don't we get Gongfu comics as good as Blade? Or do we?
I'm seriously looking for some so if someone knows Blade of the Immortal and know of a Gongfu comic as good PLEASE let me know!!!

And that's a cut!

Serious respect to all!!

[Serpent]

Masterkiller, you obviouslyhave not read anything like enough comics to justify the statement you just made!

Educate or shut up, dude! ;)

[MasterKiller]

Masterkiller, you obviouslyhave not read anything like enough comics to justify the statement you just made!

10+ years reading comics casually? I would say I read enough to make an informed decision on the matter.

We have plenty of people with 10+ years of 'casual' martial arts experience taking themselves for experts in the main forum. They make no bones about their opinions, so why should I concerning this medium?

Doesn't agree with you? Fine.

But that doesn't mean I'm wrong. It just means we disagree.

SO--How many people marked "Mutant" as their race in the last Austrailian census? None? Oh, because around 10,000 people marked Jedi as their religion, even thought he governement warned them not to. The fact the governement even had to warn people not to do it beforehand illustrates my point.

X-Men were around before Star Wars. Why hasn't it caused the same movement? Why don't those comics touch people the same way? Because they are not written for that express purpose. There is a different INTENT. And intent is what separates ART from ENTERTAINMENT.

[Kristoffer]

Good post, even though I think 'art' is a broad term. There are good movies and bad movies. Would you say that 'Dude wHERE'S MY cAR' ...is art compared to Star Wars? No. But making a movie is a process and an art by it self. therefore you could say that all movies is in fact 'art'

[MasterKiller]

"Dude, where's my car" was intended to make 15 year-olds laugh, and that's it. It was entertainment. And there's nothing wrong with that. People need entertainment.

When the creators of Star Wars and the Matrix began their respective projects, they intentionally set out to use existing myths and story-telling techniques to pass on a philosophical treatise to the audience. Their intent was to bring Eastern philosophy, mixed with some other stuff, to a Western audience that had not experienced it before. People recognized this, and ran with it.

Barring we have any "Reader Response" advocates or "Deconstructionists" in the forum, I posit that the creator's intent is the main decerning factor when considering the artistic merit of a work, be it movie, comic book, opera, or novel.

[Chang Style Novice]

SO--How many people marked "Mutant" as their race in the last Austrailian census? None? Oh, because around 10,000 people marked Jedi as their religion, even thought he governement warned them not to. The fact the governement even had to warn people not to do it beforehand illustrates my point.

There's a few problems about this.

1 - The gov. raised the profile of the Jedi-as-religion movement by warning against it.

2 - It presumes that X-Men and Star Wars had the same level of public profile in Australia. I doubt this is the case. Comics have a smaller audience than movies, but so do novels (ZING!) The size of the audience has nothing to do with the depth of the art form, as I'm sure you know very well.

3 - Star Wars is dealing with heroic and mythic themes, X-Men is dealing with queer and civil rights struggle themes. In other words, Star Wars is aiming it's message at everyone while X-men is a little more American in nature (Professor X as MLK and Magneto as Malcolm X isn't as likely to resonate for Australians as it is for Americans.) The queer/alienated teen stuff is pretty universal, I admit.

4 - What are we really talking about here, the worth of comics as an art form relative to film, or the influence that a particular comic book has had on the opinions of it's readers relative to that of a particular movie? These are obviously entirely different questions.

[Chang Style Novice]

I posit that the creator's intent is the main decerning factor when considering the artistic merit of a work, be it movie, comic book, opera, or novel.

I strongly disagree! Artistic merit is based on execution not merely intent. Craft counts.

[MasterKiller]

What are we really talking about here, the worth of comics as an art form relative to film, or the influence that a particular comic book has had on the opinions of it's readers relative to that of a particular movie? These are obviously entirely different questions.

The original discussion I was having was about how the Matrix will probably create cult following similar to Star Wars. Someone posited that X-Men had a cult following too, but I was arguing that it's not quite the same thing, as you pointed out. My quote was taken from that thread, out of context, and posted here in order to flame my Darth Vader pajamas off my booty.

I strongly disagree! Artistic merit is based on execution not merely intent. Craft counts.

True. Craft is all important. But there are plenty of pretty paintings out there that aren't artistic. Without intent, craft can fall well short of proper execution. Danielle Steele writes a well-crafted Romance Novel. It's not art, though.

Poor execution certainly prevents the creator from adequately expressing himself. There are plenty of REALLY BAD art films, novels, etc.... Just watch Independent Movie Channel sometime. Or read this! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0887392040/qid=1053700419/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-3862633-2968727?v=glance&s=books). This guy takes himself way too seriously.

[Kristoffer]

Oh but the INTENT of Dude Wheres my Car was to make 15 year old laugh. You said this right? So isn't this the ART of MAKING A FUNNY MOVIE? This does not lack the 'intent' you speak of.


(BTW I really hate DWMC so don't get me wrong. :D )

[MasterKiller]

I'm not gonna argue the implications of what you brought up. Anyone can say "this is art" or "that is art" because it takes a certain amount of talent to produce it.

Being talented isn't the same as being artistic, and vice-versa. It takes a blend of both to create something worth while.

[Design Sifu]

ShaolinWood, what have you drawn?

My quote was taken from that thread, out of context, and posted here in order to flame my Darth Vader pajamas off my booty.


First let me appologize to you Masterkiller cause that was not my intent to have you lambasted.

The topic of the comics medium as artform is a discusion I was hoping to stimulate without ambient assaults...

In short, I believe the "comic publishers" themselves have been most at fault for the proliferation of the conception that comics is "soap-opera for boys."
This is perpetuated by the dominance of the superhero genre with-in comics.

An interesting phonomina has been the recent influx of comics-to-movies. In the sence, the technology of movie making has finally caught up with the visual concepts that dominate the the superhero genre in particular.

Yes, Star Wars changed how a generation viewed and recieved movies and thus spawned a dedicated subculture. This model is sort of being followed by THE MATRIX as well. We could also throw STAR TREK in the mix which is interesting with it's origins in Television and subsiquent jumps into movies & novels (plus aturday morning cartoons, games, toys etc).

However the medium of movies is much more intrenched with-in the cultural norm than comics have been. So while the comics form is considerably older (in it's modern form dating back to the first silent films or before) the initial peek into popularity was held in check.

Does anyone remember the book Seduction of the innocent (http://members.rogers.com/mattys807/)? The publishing of this book and the senate investigation it inspired did more to damage the growth of the comics medium than the House Of Unamerican Activities did to the growth of Movies.

I suspect there were several reasons for this. One includes the popularity of movies accross all ages,the view of comics as for kids only has been dominant in the U.S. for most of the 20th century, WERTHAM'S book was a reaction to comics first steps into "adult" themes & content. Then consider the amount of money invested into, and profit made from movie production & distrabution. This all comes back to the medium of movies being much more supported by the culture at large and thus the "space" available for art to appear with-in that medium equally larger.

I'll have to come back and post about the "rise" of adult themed comics over the past 30+ years, as well as the deconstruction & reconstruction of the superhero genre including seminal works like WATCHMEN. We could also familuarize ourselves with folks like Will Eisner & Jack Kirby in terms of their, ART,Craft, intent etc...

[Serpent]

MasterKiller, you talk about what is art and then refuse to discuss someone else's opinion of what is art!

As for comics being soap opera for boys, your 10 years of casual reading is obviously not enough to form a valid opinion.

Go and read pretty much anything by Alan Moore (Watchmen would be a great place to start) or perhaps Howard Chaykin, then come back and see if you can maintain that comics are just soap operas for boys.

DS - great post!

[ShaolinWood]

Design Sifu Can I mail you some?
just let me know, I can send you some Jpegs, will scale down though.
Currently wayting for funding on a TV Show that we pitched, animated.
Untill then I'm just doing multimedia-design

[Radhnoti]

Based entirely upon the recommendations within this thread, I've pre-ordered The Way of the Rat's first year compilation.
I won't get it until August, but if this thread is still up and running I'll post my thoughts.

Oh...when I was younger I was a HEAVY comic reader. My dad owned a store that sold 'em, I'd come in and read every book and put it back on the shelf. So, I'd end up reading almost every title DC and Marvel had every week. :) Add to that, some of my best friends were (and still are) avid fans/collectors and I've kept an idea of how things are going with some of my favorites. (Daredevil, Batman, JLA, Avengers, Cap, Doc Strange, Nightwing)

Watchmen is, of course, on my list of "incredible" stories. As is, Batman Year One, Dark Knight Returns and 300. Guess I ended up being a pretty big Frank Miller fan...though Dark Knight Strikes Again didn't look to be my cup of tea.

My true joy with comics these days is introducing my son (4yrs old) to them. He loves the JLA on Cartoon Network, so I regularly buy him Justice League Adventures and Batman Gotham Adventures title. He also loves X-Men: Evolution but I've yet to buy him any X-Men titles as they don't seem to integrate the moral storylines like the DC "Adventures" titles. I suppose they're more "teen angst" driven...which is fine, just not age appropriate for him yet. Anyone else had the experience of introducing someone younger to the world of comics?

[Design Sifu]

Yeah... 300 is a classic...

DARK KNIGHT STRIKES AGAIN was extremely disappointing though... some fun bits but the whole thing could've been done as a regular 32 page comic...


As for introducing younger readers:
Last X-mas I culled a chunk of my colletion and gave my niece & nephew each a huge pile of comics as a gift...

My niece loves to read and has prbably blasted through the whole stack...
I don't get to see them all that often.

My girlfriend however has a cusin who is like 7 years old and Loves it when I pass on a handfull of comics his way...

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
DARK KNIGHT STRIKES AGAIN was extremely disappointing though... some fun bits but the whole thing could've been done as a regular 32 page comic...


Couldn't agree more.

As for great Bats stories, what about The Killing Joke?

Written by Alan Moore, drawn by Brian Bolland. Oh mama, what a beauty!

:)

[Design Sifu]

Killing Joke rocked... been a while since I read it... should read it again.

Another Great one is ARKAM ASYLUM... writen by GRANT (New X-men, Invisibles, Doom Patrol) Morrison and Dave McKean. Talk about a major head trip...

[Kristoffer]

DC sucks major ass. I mean 'superman'? How totally lame is that on a lame-o meter? :rolleyes:

[Chang Style Novice]

Underseen is the best Two-Face story, "Faces" written and drawn by Matt Wagner in three issues of Legends of the Dark Knight.

In other news, as I announced in my birthday thread, it looks a lot like I'm going to be drawing a script written by one of my internet pen-pals, which we'll quickly sum up as "Watchmen ala The Sopranos."

[chen zhen]

Invinsible superheros are always boring.

[Chang Style Novice]

Only if you think the conflict inherent in superheroes is all about fists and stuff. Miracleman is invincible, but hardly boring.

[Design Sifu]

Consider also that SUPERMAN was a product of it's time... late 1930's

Since then the charactor has gone through MANY MANY changes (take for instance the ability to fly)

Consider also the era's of other interesting comics charactor...

X-men--60's

Spiderman--60's

BATMAN--40's

PUNISHER--80's

SPAWN--90's

As for Superman's invincibility:
I'm sure he's a challange for any writter to handle for a number of reasons. What with the characto's iconic status not too much can be changed... however, his greatest weakness is his humanity. A good writer could certainly capitolise on it.

off the top of my head:
SUPERMAN for all seasons is a worthy read...

Oh yeah... werd UP on FACES, also BATMAN/GRENDEL another matt Wagner treat!!!

[chen zhen]

Superman is still boring..
He can do anything imaginable, he can lift anything in the world, and he can't be killed with anything than kryptonite.

BBBOOOORRIINNGG:D

[Kristoffer]

Yeah

[Chang Style Novice]

The first Batman Grendel crossover was pretty dope. The second one sucked chanchre sores from the asses of syphlitic walruses.

[chen zhen]

lol

[Design Sifu]

The first Batman Grendel crossover was pretty dope. The second one sucked chanchre sores from the asses of syphlitic walruses.

Well it wasn't as good as the first but it was certainly MUCH better that Dark Knight Strikes Again!!! DK2 might as well have been "Dookie too"

[Design Sifu]

why do comics even bother to insist that they are a "legitamate art form"? Why do they have ad campaigns with Tori, Madonna and Jade? What does that tell you about them if they need to do that?

--Gene Ching


A political thred hijacked by theological debate is on the verge of being hijacked by this classic question... (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22479&perpage=15&pagenumber=10)

thoughts?
coments?
continuations?

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm tired of this battle. We're right and they're wrong and that's all there is to it.

[ShaolinWood]

Comics is of course an artform, its an artform on its own, not falling under illustration or writing, but a bit of both, it has the skill of directing, character illustration and interaction, emotion -portrayal, closure etc etc...

"In Japan more paper is used to print comics than Toilet paper" Scott McCloud

Sure you get crap comics and good comics, but there certainly is amazing art out there!

Enjoy:D

[KC Elbows]

Did anyone ever see that Superman that Alan Moore did, consequently the only superman I owned later? It was really good, it started out seeming like it was going to be a campy as can be, Wonder Woman and Bat Man go to the fortress of solitude to visit Superman on his birthday, but superman is in a coma with a spore on his chest or some such stuff. As it turns out, he is imagining a life in Krypton, and is supposed to be happy, but it's all less than perfect. It's actually pretty good, but that's the only good thing I've read in Superman.

[Design Sifu]

I never read it but I've heard of it...

I keep hearing a rumor of a collection of Alan Moore's DC heroes stuff comming out..

The superman stories, The death of Robin story, Killing Joke & a few others...

Anyone pick up Alan Moore's most recient Promethea comic?

[quiet man]

I have a copy of the "death of Robin" episode (entitled 'Death in the Family'), 'all four episodes in one' or something like that. And boy, that Jason Todd was a pr!ck (pardon my french... or my freedomese) who deserved to die. So, that episode definitely ought to be reprinted :D

[Design Sifu]

A while back I mentioned how Hong Kong's Comic artist Tony Wong was going to be doing a BATMAN adventure. So here's some peview art for BATMAN: Hong Kong (http://www.dccomics.com/pdfs/batman/bmhkong.pdf)

Oh and DC has collected the works of Alan Moore's mainstream superhero stories in one book titled Across the Universe (http://www.dccomics.com/comics/dc_display.html?cm_dc_itemCode=acrossuam&month=June).... including that Superman story KC elbows was talking about...

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
Oh and DC has collected the works of Alan Moore's mainstream superhero stories in one book titled Across the Universe (http://www.dccomics.com/comics/dc_display.html?cm_dc_itemCode=acrossuam&month=June).... including that Superman story KC elbows was talking about...

Why doesn't it mention Brian Bolland!? Surely a collection like that isn't going to leave out The Killing Joke!?

:confused:

[Chang Style Novice]

My guess is that since The Killing Joke still does good