Are Judo breakfalls safe in a "street" situation?

[BeiKongHui]

I wonder about landing on concrete. What, if anything, should be done differently on the street than on the mat?

[Wilson]

NO! Judo breakfalls or any style that "slaps" your hands on the ground are no good for the street. Really easy way to injure your hands/arms/elbows. Also, if you're not careful, your head will bounce on the concrete also.

I'm sure there are other opinions but this is the way we fall (and we practice this). Whenever you go down always grab the back of your head with your hand with your elbow in tight against your ear. This will prevent your skull cracking on the ground

This is difficult to explain - If falling backwards, take the step back as you are falling, grab your head as explained above, try to sit keeping your back rounded, then roll over the shoulder of the side you are using your hand to keep your head from hitting the ground. If you don't do the roll, that's alright but if you practice, you can roll over a shoulder with your head never touching, and you will end up facing your opponent. This is not as "gymnastic" or complicated as it sounds. Believe me, I don't go for complicated, flashy moves. If you don't roll, just be sure to keep your body rounded and hold your head. That should be trained everytime you go down - forwards or backwards. It kills me evertime I see people do hard, slapping breakfalls. Its fine for sport but I don't think they've ever really thought what would happen on concrete. Picture slapping your hand as hard as you can against the street.....no thanks.

[Tai-Jutsuka]

hmm...from that whole thing it sounds like Judo isn't really good for anything.

[myosimka]

The fall Wilson seems to describe is great so long as the other person releases you but that is frequently not the case. I don't know all of the mechanics of a Judo break fall as I am not a judoka but I do practice breakfalls and they do have uses in real life not on a mat.
1) I routinely demonstrate these falls on a hardwood floor for students(I don't require them to do it that way for a while but they need to know it works.) It stings along the surface that I hit with but doesn't injure it. I have done this on frozen ground, tarmac and even ice. (That one hurt but alot less than many of the falls I had taken before I learned breakfalls.) The tricep and rear deltoid are what take the bulk of the slap and they can take alot. So I have to say that I believe that his assessment of the damage on concrete is overrated. I'd much prefer to roll on concrete but sometimes that just isn't an option.
2) Training the fall that he described seems just as bad if not worse. I train my students to use their necks and abs to keep their heads off the ground and we work it until they never hit their heads on the mat. In fact, hands behind the head are strictly forbidden during crunches, obliques or any ab warm-up so they learn to use the neck muscles. They whine, moan and hate me for it but I have far fewer head and neck injuries then our nearby sister school. Training someone to stabilize their head and neck with their hand...well, the first time they get thrown and their hands are engaged, I'll bet they realize the flaw there.
3) I have a student who must have been trained with the same mentality before he got to me. He has prior training and he continues to roll through the falls without stopping his momentum just as Wilson described. And no amount of telling him would get him to do it otherwise.(Whole different pet peeve about people who show up to learn my style but refuse to empty their cup.) That is until I showed the other students how to take his back and get guillotines from a sprawl or if he rotates the other way to get a rear naked choke. They can get those on him 50-60% of the time and they are rank beginners. My advanced students can pull them at will on this guy. Fortunately, the lesson in humility of being continuously owned by his fellow students is teaching this guy to do a breakfall. The roll is an important skill but the breakfall serves a very important purpose. Sometimes you want to stop the momentum of your fall and a breakfall does that.

What I am trying to say is that I don't like to slap the ground or concrete anymore than anyone else but sometimes it's the lesser of 2 evils. Yes, I'd prefer to do a roll(still wouldn't use my hand there though) but that's not always a good idea. I used to have the same concerns about hitting something solid with that slap. I've learned that while it's unpleasant sometimes it's the way to go. Little analogy: I'd rather use evasive footwork than shinshield sometimes. Let's face it, until you hit the first time you don't know whose shin is more conditioned and sometimes that can seriously hurt. But sometimes the shinshield leaves you in a better position. Practice both and use what the situation calls for. Same thing is true of falling.
Yes, concrete is different than the mat. Work harder to stay rooted and work that sprawl to avoid the throws in the first place. But train different kinds of falls and use what the situation calls for. And sometimes breakfalls are called for. Even in "street" situations.

Tai_Jutsuka, I know you were being facetious but I have to say this anyway. Ask Helio Gracie if he thinks ude garami isn't good for anything.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Tai-Jutsuka
hmm...from that whole thing it sounds like Judo isn't really good for anything.

Judo is extremely good for learning balance, grip-fighting, and how to throw someone wearing a jacket-like article of clothing.

And a Judo breakfall is still better than no breakfall at all, on concrete.

[Former castleva]

I like the idea of aikido (and some other arts) falling techniques which are solid but very circular like the art and therefore do not clash with the ground leaving less risk of injury if done.

[Wilson]

"The fall Wilson seems to describe is great so long as the other person releases you but that is frequently not the case"

If they don't release me, then I'm going to be holding on to them as well and we're both going down together.


"Training someone to stabilize their head and neck with their hand...well, the first time they get thrown and their hands are engaged, I'll bet they realize the flaw there. "

I'm not stabilizing the head as much as just adding protection. I train my abs so I can take a punch but I'd still rather block or get out of the way than rely on my body taking the blow. I definitely agree that neck training is extremely important, however, for many aspects of fighting.


"Fortunately, the lesson in humility of being continuously owned by his fellow students is teaching this guy to do a breakfall. "

Sounds like he's already getting "owned" if he's the one that has to do the breakfall all the time.


"Whole different pet peeve about people who show up to learn my style but refuse to empty their cup.) "

I agree with you here also. If I was at your school, I would love to see what you are talking about. At the same time, I don't think you'll convince me to be slapping the concrete.

You don't have to roll all the time. Its important to keep your body rounded to dissipate energy. That doesn't mean you have to go over each time.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tai-Jutsuka
hmm...from that whole thing it sounds like Judo isn't really good for anything.

you can't really be serious...

Back to the topic though, I too do judo dreakfalls on hardwood with no problems. or course, if you are on concrete, there are rocks and jagged suraces that may cut your arms, but you run that same risk doing the "curl into a ball" shuai chiao style fall. Ideally, you don't want to fall on concrete, but if you ever have to, you had better know some type of breakfall.

[Liokault]

Im in the roll into a ball camp of falling here.

Idealy if I have to go to the ground I land on my oponent, falling that hold on to him at least till my feet make contact with the ground.

[kenso]

Judo falls are as safe as any other style of break-falling. Period. Every "school" of break-falling has different priorities, so they accentuate different things. For instance, Aikido and Judo falls are similar, but in Judo you extend the bottom leg, whereas in Aikido you keep it tucked. In Judo competition, if you land and your upper body rolls up due to your momentum, you are vulnerable to ne waza (ground work) techniques. In Aikido the goal is to keep the body totally integrated, hence the tuck.

There is no danger of banging your head, because in proper Judo or Aikido breakfalls you tuck your head in. Try this for an experiment. Simulate the breakfall landing position as best you can. Lay halfway between your side and your back. Now keep your head in the normal position (straight up if you were standing) and have someone push straight down on your head. You will have a hard time keeping your head in that position. Now tuck your head so that you're looking toward your feet and have them push straight down again. You should notice that it's much easier to keep your head there. The force travels down your spine - your neck isn't isolated like in the other position.

[umgong]

Sorry, guys....
Been in m.a. for 43 years...in my first formal training (jiujitsu) we learned a form of breakfall from just about any position.We spent little more than a year, simply on breakfalls...no mats; no tatami. Only gravel, grass, and finally cement. Taught us how to "soft" slap and tuck your body tight.

Knowing the breakfall saved me one day when I was doing something extraordinarily stupid. I was on a 7 foot stepladder cutting tree limbs when I felt that I needed to cut one more limb which was out of my reach....you got it....I stepped to the one step below the top (the one that the pictures tell you not to use.

The ladder was not too stable and it shook because it was on top of olive seeds and leaves (underneath was cement and I fell off the ladder) I figured for an ok landing, but somehow I overtorqued and my feet got trapped...they went between the two steps when they slipped...so this was a drop fall without the use of my legs other than the fact that it torqued my upper body down faster towards the ground.

I adjusted my arms to maximize absorbing impact...my right hip took it pretty good (thought I broke it)then my legs brought the ladder down on top of me.

I just lay still to analyze if I had died, broken anything, etc...my wife started laughing from the sight of the ladder falling on top of me.

Small bruise on impact point (my hip) but this was two years ago and I am 54 years old now. So for me, the judo fall is still good for use.

[Stranger]

What is holding the head when tucking had a purpose other than keeping your head from smacking the ground?- to guard the head from strikes.

No offense to the judoka who have replied, but they did not really talk about dealing with a combative situaton on the street, merely breakfalling. If you are practicing judo on the pavement or fall off a ladder, the fall is your only concern as far as injuries, and as you posted, the judo breakfall adresses this concern. If somebody tosses you to the ground in a fight, there will probably be follow up strikes with the boot or other weapons. Grabbing your head when thrown places two sharp hard objects (your elbows) between the thrower and your face. Granted this is no force field that stops all blows, but it at least gives the standing striker something to think about (getting around your natural barrier) and that little break might beall you need.

So, judo breakfalls work on the street, however, if you might get hit after taking your fall, surely keeping arms up near your head is preferable to having one arm outstretched on the ground and the other across your belt/obi (traditional judo side breakfall) or both arms outstreched on the ground (traditional judo back breakfall).

[SevenStar]

shuai chiao has a shoulder throw similar to ippon seionage, but instead of you falling at an angle, you go straight over. Also with that throw, your arm snaps when it's executed. so, one arm is snapped, and the otherwill not be able to slap before your head hits the ground... you would have to tuck your head and working arm to try and minimize trauma to your head.

Also, keep in mind what Stranger said. In bjj, we fall more similar to how they fall in shuai chiao, for the very same reason.

[myosimka]

To stranger and sevenstar,
I absolutely see your point and I can see the use of sometimes covering your head. I can also see the point of sometimes using a true breakfall to stop momentum. I certainly see the value of such a fall under certain conditions. But my and probably other replies were in response to Wilson's statement: "NO! Judo breakfalls or any style that "slaps" your hands on the ground are no good for the street." Breakfalls do serve a purpose, so do more tucked. Plus he indicated that the specific purpose of holding the head was to:"prevent your skull cracking on the ground". That's a bad habit. Using the arm to cover is a good response. Using it to pull forward and hold the head is a bad one. I have done enough MT that I have a fairly instinctive cover lifting the elbow and passing the hand by the head but I don't grab my head to keep it from hitting the ground.
So in response to the original question, I still say "But train different kinds of falls and use what the situation calls for. And sometimes breakfalls are called for. Even in "street" situations" which in no way contradicts your claims just those of Wilson.

[neptunesfall]

i would of course go for the SC style breakfalls.
curling the body into a fetal type position, curling the arms around the head with the fists covering the neck helps defend from the following:

the thrower tripping and falling on you
the thrower maintaining control of an arm while you're on the ground (this is a very bad position to be in)
the thrower following up with a kick, stomp, strike, dropping a knee, etc. to the head or neck.

BTW; shuai chiao doesn't grab the head to keep it from hitting the ground. the body is rounded and the chin tucked into the chest. grabbing the head does help, however, it's not what we rely on.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I knew a few guys that messed up thier slapping arms with Judo breakfalls on concrete - particularly uneven concrete.

Somewhere I have a medical study on falling that details how the Judo breakfall also allows concussive force to be transmitted to your organs, whereas the Shuai Chiao / Boke style does not because the organs are more compacted.

I don't know how good the science is on that.

But for the reasons NF cited, I prefer the SC method.

[DelicateSound]

If a guy's caught me with a clean throw that I can't get out of, then I'll Judo breakfall, as it's what I know. But 99.9% of the time, it won't be. It'll be a sloppy tackle or trip from an inexperienced fighter.

Watch Judo competition. Do the judoka even attempt a breakfall on these? No. They twist into the best position, the most advantageous one. The fall is not your biggest problem from the average trip or sweep, the follow up blows are.

I still stick by Judo breakfalls though - the science is right.

[SevenStar]

they'll break fall - they will try to spin around into a forward fall, then turtle up so you can't do anything to them. Eventually the ref will stand them back up because no progress can be made to to the faller turtling up. He can't just fall on his back - he'd lose the match.

That said, sure, something like hiza guruma won't hurt on a mat, but on concrete and if you don't know how to fall, it can be pretty painful I'd imagine. May not be enough to end the fight though.

[Black Belt Jones 1]

Two years ago I was walking out of the University after it had been raining(freezing rain). I slipped on the 2nd step and, instinctively(judo breakfall training) tucked my chin and slapped my arms down while fallling backward. I din't feel a thing, just got up and went to my car. A few hours later the same thing happened to another guy except he ended up with a broken elbow and bruised ribs.

[myosimka]

Not sure who taught you a PLF but if it was a sport dz, never ever go there again. (If it was the army, who knows what stupid ass **** they are teaching in jump school these days? An arm slap means one of 2 things: 1) you have released your toggles and now cannot fly your canopy or 2) you are still holding your toggles and you have just given your canopy tons of input on one side during landing. Hook turns are actually the number one cause of death amongst skydivers these days not a chute opening. (or what whuffos think of when we talk about a total mal.) If you executed one with an arm slap and never got hurt, then a) you are loved by a higher power and blessed beyond other people. or more likely, b) the canopy flight was over and the flare was timed well enough that you didn't need a PLF at all. Stand it up, baby!!!

[myosimka]

True enough but most experienced troopers will execute a rear riser flare in any case. If you don't, you won't have knees long even with a good PLF. A standing landing still gets a reprimand but I notice an awful lot of instructors who land and their canopies have already begun collapsing before they execute PLFs.
My point remains the same though: a proper PLF involves elbows in tight and hands in front of the body. Up in front of chest and kneck to protect self or down if flaring a chute. In neither case is an arm slap recommended. But we are now THREE posts off topic so I'll let it go there.

Feeling the urge>>> must go to DZ and must switch to posting on dropzone.com.

[guohuen]

He He, I agree about standing landings and I think it's funny the instructors are faking it. There's something odd about hitting the ground like a ton of crap with more gear than you weigh. I also like running down someones chute and colapsing it because their being dragged. Standup landings are much better.

[Mr Punch]

Never taken much judo.

Used aiki breakfalls very successfully (probably saving both my legs once) in two non-combat situations, and many times in sparring (completely different from when someone's trying to f*** you up).

Used one (ushiro) in a playfight that went out of hand, was smothered, and still have twinges of a lower spinal injury over two years later.

Don't recommend relying on any breakfalls when your opponent is set on keeping hold and snapping off some bit of you.

Also, the 'some kind of breakfall is better than none' is dangerous IMO. In some situations it's better to just sink your weight to the ground rather than having to twist out of an aborted breakfall when someone wants to take part of you home.

Last point, in some situations, a good breakfaller can take control and rip out of someone's grasp. Have done this a couple of times, though admittedly in sparring.

Would think that this works better for aikidoka than judoka, as aikidoka practise falling as a way of saving themselves, thus often rolling away from the point of contact, whereas judoka (in my limited experience) are shown how to stay close to the opponent and sometimes use their bodies to take themselves down. Don't know... anyone care to disagree?:D