Shaolin Temples of Malaysia

[r.(shaolin)]

There is a claim by a

[norther practitioner]

I have 2 roomates.... one I train with, the other laughs at us. The one who laughs calls our house the Shaolin Temple from time to time, so, yeah, we founded one here in Denver too...

LOL!!

FYI I think the house was built in the 40s, so, obviously what we do there is the original, less watered down, version.

[Shaolin Master]

Abbott Shi Gao Cen is of the Southern Shaolin Tradition.
Hood Ga Pai => Fo Jia Pai => Fut Ga Pai (meaning of the buddhist family as opposed to the popular guangdong style)

Abbott Shi Gao Cen was sent from Fujian in the middle of the 20th century to help restore, maintain & rebuild the Lian Hua Shan Shuang Lin Si in Poa Toya (Lotus Mountain Double Forest Temple), Singapore.

The arts he taught were of the Luohan tradition principally as passed by Shi Hui Ching. He had travelled alot in his youth studying/living buddhism, medicine and martial arts.

Now, many practitioners in Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and Europe have sprouted but many like any great legend only learnt a piece of the knowledge Shi Gao Cen had passed unfortunately. This to the detriment of the art but this is how many things go in life.

Abbott Shi Gao Cen was respected by countless individuals mainly for his buddhist compassion and medicine, also for his martial arts traditions and pure spirituality.

ShuangLin Temple in Singapore was rebuilt and an altar paced in his honour.

As I am of that tradition as well (A Disciple of Zhong Min Ju) he is my grandmaster so please do not dis' without comprehension. My teacher Master Zhong was the Master in Charge of supervising teaching at the Shuang Lin Temple until his passing a few years ago.

Regards
Shi Chan Long

PS : Posts on Southern Forum regarding 'Sek Gok Sum' (Hokkien for Shi Gao Cen) can be found.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Dear Shaolin Master

Your wealth of knowledge regarding southern styles never cease to amaze me, so I figured out you are the perfect person to ask this question...

I'm sure you know about Penang's Pong Chie Kim...if my memory serves me right, he trains hood kar pai...
As surprising as it may sound, he is very well known here in France in the chinese martial arts addicts community, but I seldom see him mentionned here or in web pages (I found him in one, the page with Sek Gok Sam practicing the seated xi nu luo han).
What is your opinion on him? I mean, it's a clumsy question, and I intend no disrespect. But I'm quite intrigued by his relative celebrity here and his discretion everywhere else.

Thanks in advance for any reply :-)

[r.(shaolin)]

Shi Chan Long

A certain Tan

[norther practitioner]

Sorry for my earlier sarcasm.....

In all reality, there are so many "Shaolin" temples it gets rediculous. So many schools tie there lineages back to a temple, that in some accounts may have never existed, or if they have, they haven't been around for a very long time. I have to imagine also, that when some of these monks roamed China back in the day, if they were a skilled fighter, many people would just assume that they were of Shaolin heritage. I do not mean to take from anyones lineage, it may be true, I'm not going to go there now (and quite frankly, if you are enjoying yourself, so be it), it is just there are so many, both true and untrue that it can get a little much after a while. Where this southern lineage goes could be very impressive, and seems fairly well documented, my comments are not targetted to this lineage at all. So, again sorry.

Aumitabha

[r.(shaolin)]

"In all reality,

[Shaolin Master]

There are many questions, I will attempt to answer all but if I miss any just let me know and I respond to them next time :


Crimson,
-> What is your opinion on him? 'Penang's Pong Chie Kim' :

I will be honest as usual, He is well known for various reasons :
1. He wrote the first book on the art ever, in those days no matter how good or bad since there were so few books on the arts anyone who wrote a book became well known and thought to be a master.
2. He had many students that ended up going to Europe " Germany, france and holland, which popularised the art there even before the Songshan Shaolin boom.

Opinion : He studied with Sek Gok Sum late in the scene (only studied 5 years towards the end of Abbotts life). Pong also made claims in Euro-magaizines that Sek Gok Sum also knew Xing Yi, Bagua etc....which is totally incorrect (I hope it is editors bluff). To my knowledge like many others he only studied the fundamentals and then concentrated on iron fist skill (which we all practice) to which he became popular. All schools of Sek Gok Sum could really fight, rough and coarse but in those days they were a pretty tough bunch. Anyways, to summarise he did not recieve full transmission but has gained fame, it is usually the trend, the best are not necessarily most well known.

r. (Shaolin),

A bit lenghty but I'll try to summarise :

Sek Gok Sum (Shi Gao Cen) resided in ShuangLin Temple (Siong Lim in Hokkien) NOT 'Shaolin'. The ShuangLin Temple is in Singapore. There were originally around 18 true disciples of the Abbott who lived and resided there, who were responsible for cooking cleaning maintenance etc... of the buildings and premises. In addition to these disciples there were many students, however they studied differently and were usually supervised by some of the disciples rather than by Abbott who was primarily a Buddhist Monk and being busy with other tasks rather than teaching martial arts. Now Sek Gok Sum had the habit of teaching different things to different people, this created differences amongst the group (so often one school to another teaches different things). Some of the 'students' as opposed to disciples attempted to open up schools, these students also inticed disciples to collude with them thus although Sek Gok Sum was unmoved by it he gave support, it resulted that only a few (I was told 4) recieved the transmissions (all are but dead now).
Shao Xiong Shan (Xiau Ho San) was the first of those schools outside Shuang Lin Temple (remember not Shaolin). [over 16 schools started up].

Tan from America I have never heard and I don't really care as well as those in Europe. However he has NO claim over the word Shaolin because his arts are from ShuangLin (SiongLim in Hokkien which is the language of fujianese which is the origin of many of the people, the martial art and even the temple (Fujianese architecture).

Many of my Uncles in Singapore were visited by Shi De Qian, who wrote the history of the style and included our basic/fundamental set known as 'Yi Zhi Mei' in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. Also many of the school members also visited Shi De Chan after Shi Gao Cen's passing to continue studies and as result many of us are disciples of both Shi Gao Cen's tradition as well as Songshan Shaolin Temple.

Shi Gao Cen's arts are said to be the art kept within the monks in Fujian and to be closest to the old so called 'shaolin' tradition. He did not study in any southern shaolin temple but rather in other temples with his teachers Shi Xing Lian, Shi Hui Ching and the like. He was however said to be one of the 3 disciples of Shi Hui Ching, who was a martial arts expert of the 'shaolin' tradition.

As Shi Gao Cen was a monk and his history well documented his background is irrefuted as he was a kind soul without reason for telling lies or make up lineages.

About me it is very straight forward :

Shi Gao Cen -> Cheong Meng Joo & Li Bin Ching -> Me.

I have also studied many traditional martial arts and am currently studying the almost unfound arts of JiangXi province 'ZiMenQuan' and 'Ying Men Quan' in addition to Yue Jia Quan.

I have no affiliations to any society or group therefore I have no biases.

Northern Practioner,
I agree it is the reason I call the style :
Shaolin Fo Jia Pai Luohan Quan rather than the Fist of Shaolin Temple.

r.(shaolin),
correct there is no shaolin temple in Malaysia or Singapore unless built in recent times.

The world is so gullible that it is how most of America has made money :-) in its cool marketing programs. Italy with clothes, China with porcelain, German's with cars etc.....it starts of as quality it may become just style which may then be empty ....heheh just kidding :-)

:
Hope I answered all questions put forethorth apologies if I missed any.

[r.(shaolin)]

Shaolin Master

Thank you for

[r.(shaolin)]

----
Shaolin

[Shaolin Master]

Agreed.

[fiercest tiger]

hey have you met or trained with this monk Ven Sek Meow Di?

He is in singapore and is shaolin kung fu i think!

FT:)

[cogg]

Shaolin master: have you met Master Tan Eng Hock also from Singapore? if you have do you have any opinions?

[Shaolin Master]

Nope, I know of a Sek Meow Yee in Malaysia ?
Ft, where is this Ven Monk and what type of 'shaolin' ?

Tan Eng Hock .... from which school/style (Popular name be more specific) ?

names in mandarin may help (chinese characters would be better).

cheers

[Crimson Phoenix]

Shaolin Master, thank you for your once again enlightening answer. It explains a lot...

[r.(shaolin)]

----
Shaolin Master wrote:

Many of my Uncles in

[Shaolin Master]

r.(shaolin) wrote :
Frankly becoming disciples of Shi De Qian doesn't add any credence that ShuangLin Temple (or Lian Hua Shan Shuang Lin Si) had any connection to the historical to Shaolin Si in Honan or for that matter their martial arts (as Tan Chin Hock seems to claim).
To imply that the very obvious southern style taught by Shi Gao Cen was anyway close to the northern styles of Shaolin Si is simple not credible.
In the north on the contrary Buddhism sought support of the imperial government which was very welcoming of such a relationship.
------------------------------
Of course it does not add credibility it just explains the modern interest in Shi Gao Cen's arts and that a connection existed was not implied read again : The arts were from Shi Hui Ching who was said (read carefully not claimed said) to have practised some form of 'shaolin' arts however no relation to SongShan ShaoLinSi was implied (or Northern shaolin for that matter). In fact the arts are generic of those practised in Fujian province mainly.

So your implication is that Northern Buddhist factions were well connected to the political stream of things and government. Where as the Southern acted as an independent entity that selected its behaviour and actions based on assessment ?

Even though I have been a disciple of both Shi Gao Cen's arts and Shi Heng Lin's for a significant amount of time I must say that you have not read the post carefully and still instigate some of the Tan CHin Hock commentary.

Next time you wish to exercise critical thought ensure that your have properly thought over the mentality of the writer not just the mixed up ideals of a whole martial entity.

Finally what is your point that has not already been made clear ?

Cheers
Wu Chan Long

PS : love your cool word 'heterodox' was the northern '****dox then :-) just playing

[r.(shaolin)]

---
(were) the northern '**

[r.(shaolin)]

----
Shaolin Master wrote:
Tan . . . . has NO claim over the word Shaolin

---
Just to put some closure to this.

This group does not have any exclusive right to ‘Shaolin wushu.’ I think they know that now.
Not a bad fellow, just uninformed . . . .or possibly mislead by his teachers. . . .

r.

[NorthernShaolin]

r.

So does that mean the courts did not rule in his favor? If he lost, this is great news, not only for you but for everyone who has concerns about CMA's future in the long course of time.

:) :)

[bungle]

Do you guys think this information has any bearing on Wong Kiew Kits style, www.wahnam.com? Thanks

[r.(shaolin)]

The phrase “Shaolin Wushu” (which referes to the Mandarin pronunciation) was commonly used to describe Shaolin martial arts in northern China prior to the 1900’s. For various reasons the use of the Mandarin in relationship to Southern Shaolin styles, begun only since the mid 1980’s. Nevertheless, the term was traditionally used to describe two major divisions, “northern shaolin wushu’ and ‘southern shaolin wushu’, and countless off-shoots and branches that developed over literally centuries and is a commonly held part of Chinese culture. It would be arrogant for a single corporate entity to misappropriate these descriptive words for themselves or their financial gain. IMO this goes for the present Shaolin Temple as it does for us.
Although the association I belong to has been using the term “shaolin wushu” for generations, (lets say a long, long time before 1949) we are making no claim to any exclusive use of it. We however, have clear documentation of using this term (the pinyin) long before the term had equity or common use in the West or for that matter in the PRC or Malaysia.
The bottom line is, after meeting face to face we were able to settle the matter lets say amicably. One other note, it is highly unlikely the Shaolin Temple or the Chinese government was behind any of this. We did meet with the Consulate General of the Peoples's Republic of China for western Canada, and they were very surprised to hear of it. Further more, the Chinese community in general was taken aback by it as well.

r.

[dc_jowga]

have you heard of "kek lok si"? my sijo studied there. i have not been avle to find any information about it.

[saolim]

"Kek Lok Si" is a well known temple in Penang, Malaysia.
Very popular with tourists.

I never heard anything about martial arts being practiced in that temple.

Try whis site for more (general: non-martial art) info on the temple:

http://penangtalk.com/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi/penangtalk?tK=kek+lok+si&yVz=mM&hIz=999&hJz=0&cmd=find&by=&xcfgfs=tK-yVz-aO-hKz

Or search by yourself:

http://penangtalk.com


Best wishes,

Simon
www.saolim.tk