Buk Sing CLF vs Hung Sing CLF? differences? [Archive]

FUJIYakumo

06-29-2000, 08:13 PM

In one of the posts on forms someone said;

"Bak Sing Choy Lee Fut has about 5 sets, Hung Sing close to or more than 100"

is there any conceptual difference between
the two? i think we have one of the head
guys up in sydney (bak sing clf?) i remember
he inherited the 'name' for the kwoon or something.

why does one version have 5 and one many more?

what other differences round out the two versions of CLF?

nospam

07-01-2000, 06:23 AM

FUJIYakumo,

I am a practitioner of Bak Hsing CLF.

"is there any conceptual difference between
the two? "

Yes. Conceptually, the 2 versions are distinct. There are commonalities, but the principles of technique differ. Bak Hsing works on modified concepts originating from Hung Hsing CLF. It really depends on one's lineage within CLF. There are some Bak Hsing folks that seemingly practise what looks like Hung Hsing. This is where lineage plays a great role in how one assimilates their CLF. Truth be told, my exposure to Hong Hsing CLF has sadly been very limited.

"why does one version have 5 and one many more?"

The founder of Bak Hsing CLF was more interested in the fighting aspects of CLF kung fu. Emphasis was thus placed on application and learning through actual fighting and sparring. It has been said that the founder also did not stay long enough under his Hung Hsing sifu to have learned many Hung Hsing patterns. This, in combination with emphasis on fighting, left a legacy of but a few patterns as the foundation of forms work within Bak Hsing CLF. This also speaks to one of the many differences between Hung Hsing and Bak Hsing principles.

"what other differences round out the two versions of CLF?"

I have been told that these differences could fill a book. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hope that helps, some. The differences even within Bak Hsing CLF from kwoon-to-kwoon surprise me to this very day. We do what we each do.

Jimbo

07-03-2000, 08:09 PM

There are around 100 or so forms in the Hung Sing system, but realistically, no one can practice 100 forms and be really good at any of them. Most Hung Sing stylists will learn the the more common basic and intermediate sets, some advanced sets, and that's where they can differ.

Example: Our lineage is Hung Sing, but from two different sources. One is from Sigung John Lem (Chung Lem), who was a lay student of the Wing Foon monastery. In his CLF, the emphasis was on short combinations for 2-person application, and a few short fighting sets, more closely-knit short-hand combinations, and hard qigong. Period. It was strictly based on simple practicality. It is extremely rare.

The other source is from Sigung Howard Lee, a sihing of Doc Fai-Wong under Master Lau Bun. This method has many more sets, long sets, weapons, etc.

These two lineages, though both technically Hung Sing, but due to emphasis/lineage/location, look like almost two different systems.

Not to mention that the Hung Sing of both Sigung Lem and Sigung Lee have little resemblance to the Hung Sing taught by Tat Mau-Wong via Grandmaster Lee Koon-Hung, which came through Hong Kong.

Just wanted to point out that even within the "Hung Sing" system, there are varying degrees of differences, some great.
Jim

[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 07-04-2000).]

CLFNole

07-05-2000, 10:17 AM

I am a practioner of Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut and was a student of Sifu Lee Koon Hung and am currently a student of his younger brother Sifu Li Siu Hung. I have often asked my sifu about differences between hung sing and buk sing and differences between various branches of hung sing. One thing I learned was that buk sing does not use the two-handed poon kue sow choy (block with right hand, block with left hand then sow choy) but rather a single or double poon kue with the left hand followed by the sow choy. Other differences I was told was that the stances were a bit higher because the creater Tam Sam liked fighting and designed buk sing choy lay fut primarily for fighting (another reason for the lack of forms). Hope this helps a bit and would like to know of other differences. In any event both branches are good and were all part of the same family.

mantis boxer

07-08-2000, 01:53 AM

Buk Sing CLF has more of a northern incfluence to it because it combines Hong Sing CLF and northern shaolin. I don't know why one has more forms than the other. More forms does not mean a better style. My style has more than 30 hand forms. Wing Chun has a great style and they only have 3 hand forms. IF the style has more hand forms, it's basically a lot of repeats anyways.

mantis boxer

07-08-2000, 12:46 PM

CLF,

You said

Other differences I was told was that the stances were a bit higher because the creater Tam Sam liked fighting and designed buk sing choy lay fut primarily for fighting (another reason for the lack of forms).

Are you saying that a style with a lot of forms isnt' for fighting? Well anyways Tan Sam fought northern shaolin master.. I think it was Ku Yu Cheong or Yeem Seung Mo. The fight was a tie and they agreed to send their students to the other's school for further training. That's how the 2 styles got mixed. Northern shaolin and choy lay fut = Buk Sing CLF. That's why they wider stances etc.

CLFNole

07-10-2000, 05:08 AM

To Mantis Boxer,

The amount of forms a style has is meaningless. What I was saying is that Tam Sam concentrated more on the fighting aspects of his style rather than make tons of forms that all have the same basic techniques in them. The style of Choy Lay Fut I practise has a lot of forms in it but that doesn't make it any better or any worse than any other style. I feel it all comes down to the practitioner and how hard one works.

TIDAL

07-19-2000, 03:16 AM

Im a buk sing choy lay fut student. From what my sifu has told me is that our system has more use of the charp choi (leopard fist) then the hung sing version and lower stances due to its northern influence.

That's is all I know to date I can probably find out some more info Ill check back here later

TIDAL

gwai-jai

07-20-2000, 09:33 AM

Can anyone tell me the names of the five Bak Sing Choy Lee Fut Forms? I know that one of them is, possibly sup ji, or sup ji kao da, as some of us at our gwoon were having a similar discussion as to the differences between Bak Sing and Hung Sing. My Choy Lee Fut comes from Chan Heung, Chan Koon Pak, Fong Yuk Shu, Chan Hon Hung, Jew Yu Jong, and Ng Hao Tak (Edmund Ng) from Hong Kong. Our Choy Lee Fut is similar to master Lee Koon Hung`s in appearance, but the pattern of the forms are totally different and our biu jong technique is more like the way it is applied in Hung Gar as apparently masters Fong Yuk Shu, Chan Hon Hung, & Jew Yu Jong, all practised Hung Gar as young men before starting Choy Lee Fut. The strange thing is that the only Bak Sing form I have seen is sup ji the techniques were different but the pattern of the form was nearly the same as our sup ji form.

T. Cunningham

07-29-2000, 06:58 PM

Bak Sing (little north) is a variation of Hung Sing. Tam Sam's school was called Siu Bak Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut because of its location. Tam Sam's students changed the name to Bak Sing CLF to shorten the name and also to show respect to their instructor. The variances between Hung Sing and Bak Sing came about in the same manner as the differences between Tang Fung and Lam Sai Wing Hung Ga, the different schools of Wing Chun, and almost all other schools of martial arts. As students spread out to propogate the art, the evolutionary paths of what they are teaching tend to diverge.

molum_jr

07-30-2000, 01:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mantis boxer:
Tan Sam fought northern shaolin master.. I think it was Ku Yu Cheong or Yeem Seung Mo. The fight was a tie and they agreed to send their students to the other's school for further training. That's how the 2 styles got mixed. Northern shaolin and choy lay fut = Buk Sing CLF. That's why they wider stances etc. [/quote]

I'll toss this in... My sihing went to HK over a decade ago and visited Lung, Kai-Ming; son of Lung, Chi-Cheong* (junior classmate of Yim, Sim-Mo). He originally went to question him about Ma, Gim-Fung and also asked him about the infamous fight between Ku, Yu-Cheong and Tam Sam: "IT NEVER HAPPENED," was his response. Isn't that a mindblower? Interesting though...

* Lung, Chi-Cheong was one of the original three students of Ku, Yu-Cheong that was exchanged over to Tam Sam for training in Bak Sing CLF.

Buk Sing CLF

09-06-2000, 08:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TIDAL:
Im a buk sing choy lay fut student. From what my sifu has told me is that our system has more use of the charp choi (leopard fist) then the hung sing version and lower stances due to its northern influence.

That's is all I know to date I can probably find out some more info Ill check back here later

TIDAL[/quote]
Hiya TIDAL,
I practise BSCLF in Perth. Where are you? It's possible our schools are linked?!?

nospam

09-07-2000, 05:14 AM

A.Bey...you said it.

The basic elements remain similar if not the same, but the interpretation differs from teacher-to-teacher.

premier

09-07-2000, 08:20 AM

This is strange. you guys talk about CLF all the time, but nobody ever mentions the Chan Family CLF, the original CLF. (don't take that in a wrong way =))

why is this? don't you have any CFCLF schools in USA?

CLFNole

09-07-2000, 09:32 AM

I believe there is one is California operated by Chan Kit Fong's son Fu Hang Ng.
I don't think that Chan Yong Fa has any school's in the United States.

Buk Sing CLF

09-07-2000, 05:58 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gwai-jai:
[B]Can anyone tell me the names of the five Bak Sing Choy Lee Fut Forms?

As far as I know there are only three distinct un-armed forms in BSCLF: Sup Se Kuen, Ping Kuen and Kou Da.

Each one is substantially long and complicated, encompassing all aspects of the style.
Tarm Sarm believed it was better to 'master' effective fighting techniques rather than learn many forms and master none, hence the limited number of forms.

The Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut Gwoon in Melbourne has recently opened its web site up again.
I can't remember the address but if you search for BSCLF (spelt the way I spell it) in Australia you'll find it. It has huge amounts of information on BSCLF and, I think, it's a great site.
Let me know what you think. My school is mentioned as a sister school in Perth.

WongFeHung

11-10-2000, 10:02 AM

Could you give me some history on Tam Sam? What is his full name? Where is he from? My fiance' is a Tam, her mother was well known for her gung-fu and her great grand uncle was Tam Jai Gwun,we are interested in Tam's lineage. Also, what are the weapon sets in Buk Sing CLF?

realkungfubrasil

12-09-2000, 09:45 AM

Hi guys, I practice Choy li Fut (Chan Kwok Way's family, with more emphazis on the Tam Sam branch) and Xing-Yi (Xang-Hsi and Hobei branches), I've been in San Francisco in 1992 and what I saw on Tat mau Wong's CLF for me appeared tottaly different from what I've been practicing here, under my si-fu marcello teixeira (a top si-fu and direct student from Chan). I think that the largest northern stances, plus the more emphazis of large and strong leopard fists may be one of the differences between buk-sing and hung sing. I have also a question: what about low kicks? what are the differences in low kicks in the two branches.
Thanks for the attention, Hung Moon Party Heroes are invencible! HUNG-SING!!!

nospam

12-11-2000, 02:40 AM

Technically, I would highly doubt there are many, if any, differences in low kicks from Hung to Bak Hsing CLF, except for when one might apply them.

Traditionally, my lineage within Bak Hsing only had a low front snap kick executed as you engaged. Because of the Northern influence, we do have a full compliment of northern kicks and other sundry aerodynamics.

BUK SING

01-15-2008, 06:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TIDAL:
Im a buk sing choy lay fut student. From what my sifu has told me is that our system has more use of the charp choi (leopard fist) then the hung sing version and lower stances due to its northern influence.

That's is all I know to date I can probably find out some more info Ill check back here later

TIDAL
Hiya TIDAL,
I practise BSCLF in Perth. Where are you? It's possible our schools are linked?!?[/QUOTE]

Hey I Practise Buk Sing in Perth to. Who do you learn from Sifu George, Sifu Vincent, Sifu Lee or someone else.

BUK SING

01-15-2008, 06:24 PM

In Buk Sing we use lots of charp choi because it was Tarm Sarms favourite technique and he because he was also famous for his Lee warn Charp.

Buk Sing was mainly for fighting and not for forms.

Tarm Sarm was into challenging people and street fighting he lost in a streeet fight once and went on to develop his own style.

he originally got exspelled from his hung sing school for fighting another student but he ended up learning the rest of the froms from a freind.

He also went into northern china to learn some kung fu

for information on how the style was developed and other info about the style go in google and type in one of the following. vince lacey, dave lacey, buksing:cool:

chasincharpchui

01-16-2008, 10:45 AM

Tarm Sarm was into challenging people and street fighting he lost in a streeet fight once and went on to develop his own style.

yo dude, think you should go to your sigung's website (buksing.com), read what he wrote and correct yourself on that post, because tarm sarm never lost a fight.

correction: tarm sarm clf has same elements, different execution. more emphasis on extension

sijo tarm sarm(king of southern fist) and sinsi ku yu jeong(king of northern kick) exchanged students because they respected eachothers fighting abilities. and this was the only way they could better their kung fu without bowing down to one or the other.

extrajoseph

01-16-2008, 12:50 PM

Can you show us some examples of the same element, different execution between hung sing and buk sing, and they are no longer the same thing?

chasincharpchui

01-16-2008, 01:45 PM

Can you show us some examples of the same element, different execution between hung sing and buk sing, and they are no longer the same thing?

by elements i meant the seeds

gwa sau charp etc

yes buk sing and hung sing are not the same thing
if they were, then they'll be only 2 lineages of clf, not 3

extrajoseph

01-16-2008, 02:02 PM

Do buk sing gwa, or sau or charp differently to hung sing? How?

chasincharpchui

01-16-2008, 02:19 PM

ive said it in the past, buk sing charp chui is different to hung sing charp chui, its not juss the shape of a leopard fist that makes ur punch a charp chui, its body mechanics.

that goes for lin warn charp chui aswell, more to it than a left right cross/right left cross

learn off a buk sing master, and u'll know

extrajoseph

01-16-2008, 02:48 PM

chasincharpchui

01-16-2008, 03:18 PM

I have exchanged hands with Buk SWing practitioners and the difference is more of a personal interpretation of basic seeds and nothing more. Have you been to a Hung Sing schools?

Do you know what Buk Sing stood for? It stood for Hung SING CLF as practised by Tarm Sarm and his students from the district of Siu BUK, hence Buk Sing Gwoon.

If you seak to the elders, Tarm Sarm himself was reluctant to change the school name to Buk Sing, it was more widely used only after his death. Also it has always been CLF Buk Sing Gwoon. Putting Buk Sing infront of CLF was considered bad manners in the olden days.

Same seeds do not produce different species of trees and the same family only has one blood or lineage line. They are observational facts. As for someone NEVER lose a fight, is it humanly possible?

We call ourselves clf buck sing gwoon, but we say our style is buck sing for short

it wasn't bad manners in the old days to call it buk sing clf, it was politically incorrect. only hung sing as in jeong hung sing was viewed as correct to be put infrot of clf, coz afterall he was the co-founder of the style.

other southern styles have the seeds that clf has aswell, u do see the difference wen they throw a sau choy right?

and as for the question have i been to other (jeong) hung sing schools. yes several in hk

u exchanged hands with a buk sing practioner? good for you
u didn't see the difference? bad luck

there are some techniques that fighting manuals will never have

hskwarrior

01-16-2008, 03:26 PM

OMG, this year is beginning to freak me out. this is the 2nd time i'm agreeing with ej.....somebody help meh!!!!!:D

True, Tam Sam's lineage "did" start developing methods not traditionally taught in Hung Sing. BUT!!!!! as EJ said, Tam Sam was a Die Hard Hung Sing Man, NOT AS BUK SING.

Tam Sam's original school was called Hung Sing Tam Kwoon, and when the name of Buk Sing Kwoon was brought up, Tam Sam wasn't for it. He didn't want it to change. people like Chui Cheung was one of those that supported Tam Sam NOT wanting to change their name. In Fact, Lun Chee even stated that it was Hung Sing, and NOT Buk Sing at the time.

Tam Sam did his own innovations, and this is understandable since CLF was still in its developmental stages. (the same went for chan fam too)...... so of course it's understandable that Tam Sam as a fighter continued to develop things not passed down to him from the Hung Sing lineage.

To tell the truth, a major part of buk sing is STILL hung sing, and it's found in the forms. Slight modifications have taken place over the years, but the very same elements in buk sing are STILL found in hung sing today.

although i see no connection from Hung Sing to Chan Family, i DO see the strong connection with Hung Sing and Buk Sing.

i'd be more interested in knowing why buk sing feels they need to separate themselves from their mother school. All schools develop material exclusive to their own branch. just look at the chan fam.

but in the end, Tam Sam's teacher was Lui Chun, who was one of the 3 main principal disciples of Jeong Yim. ANYONE from Lui Chun's lineage is high up in the Hung Sing Fut San branch.

hskwarrior

01-16-2008, 03:27 PM

As for someone NEVER lose a fight, is it humanly possible?

yes. if every fight you've had you've won, then yes brother EJ.

hskwarrior

01-16-2008, 03:35 PM

there are some techniques that fighting manuals will never have
Reply With Quote

and this is where the separation between us begins. But, that should be celebrated, and not used as a tool to cut yourself off from the body.

Now, for the clueless folks, when Tam Sam moved up north, he settled in Siu Buk, and was teaching at the Dai Miew Temple. But it was STILL hung Sing Choy Lee Fut then. Since they were up in the north, they felt it was TOO long to say they practiced "Siu Buk Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut" so later it was shortened to Buk Sing.

again, the statement above is true, because within the Yuen Hai lineage is a Seung Kwa Choy executed like a Kwa Cup, instead the Cup Element is actually another Kwa Choy. I haven't seen this in other CLF schools yet. and i said YET!!!!!

extrajoseph

01-16-2008, 03:37 PM

OMG, this year is beginning to freak me out. this is the 2nd time i'm agreeing with ej.....somebody help meh!!!!!:D

although i see no connection from Hung Sing to Chan Family, i DO see the strong connection with Hung Sing and Buk Sing.

Hi Frank,

If you want a disagreement, above is one. Hung Sing is Chan Family as passed down through Futsan. Different places, but he same species of trees, to use a metaphor.

I also would like to know why YOUR hung sing feels they need to separate themselves from their mother school. All schools develop material exclusive to their own branch.

:D