How do YOU know??

[wushu chik]

I am just curious. How do YOU know that your stuff is 100% right? Seriously, how do you know? Were you back there way back when...in the days of YSM and KYC? Do you know for sure that you're learning EXACTLY whats supposed to be taught? How do you know that your stuff is the "Authority Style" to something?

~Wen~

[GeneChing]

Hell, I'd be happy with 50% right. But I've learned to fill in the gaps over time - often I'll learn a new technique that maps on to something I learned in BSL, which is very reaffirming. Did my Sifu know that technique? Probably. It doesn't really matter if he did or he didn't. What matters is that I eventually figured it out.

Martial arts is not static. If you're waiting for someone to teach you the true kungfu, then I have a belt I'd like to sell you. http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/belt.html . Your teacher can show you the forms, but you have to give them meaning. It's your research.

So my stuff ain't near 100% right. Not yet at least.;)

[NorthernShaolin]

If the concepts and essence of the style is taught then that is all that matters. The ability of being able to use the concepts and principles in applications and the ability "to see the next level of applications" is what really counts. No sifu can teach a student this. The sifu can only show the method but the student is the one who makes the style become alive and bring it to its fullest potential.

"Believe in the style that you know and it will never let you down", my sifu once told me.

[Mizong_Kid]

i always think about that........i guess its what you know about your own sifu......and how much attention he pays towards you....

though i guess its very much upto the student to practice and think about what he/she is doing.......and then ask away.....

i hate learning something wrong....because its harder to learn it the right way afterwards

[HuangKaiVun]

There is but ONE authority in traditional chinese kung fu:

TOUCH HANDS.

If the technique works against a skilled resisting opponent, it works and nobody can say otherwise.

Those who want to argue - let them face the technique in combat.

[GeneChing]

I recently learned a different way of doing a particular move in BSL tantui from my Emei studies. I could use the old BSL method - it was servicable, but the 'new' method makes much more sense. In essence, I didn't understand it completely before. I could use the previous technique in sparring, in fact, it was one of my favorites, a nice little combo. But the new method is far more effective and although I haven't had the chance to use it sparring, I'm confident that I'll be able to with ease if the opportunity presents itself.

So in this situation, touching hands really didn't show me the depth of the technique, not at all. Nor did I get 100% of the technique when I initially learned it (I've been practicing tantui for a LONG time now, longer than I'd like to admit!) But now, I have a much deeper understanding of it, or at least one move from it. I could easily project this process to any of the moves in any of the styles I study. It's what keeps me doing them actually, otherwisee, it would be hella boring.;)

[wushu chik]

Good Posts Guys....
Lets broaden this question a bit.

When it comes to the previous question......who am I (or anyone else) to tell you that what you're doing isn't "correct" but what I am IS? Do you think that this makes sense, especially with the previous answers? Do you think ANYONE is really learning 100% of what was originally taught??

~Wen~

[NorthernShaolin]

Well, it all depends on who is doing the correction and who is on the receiving end.

Who has the most experience in CMA weights alot here but there is a method of check and balance in determining if the "correct' way is the real way:

1. does the techniques or 'correct' way really flow with the over all flavor of the set or style?
2. is the object being 'corrected' a method of doing or is it a basic concept that is constant in the style?
3. is the 'correct' way in question in line with the rest of the principles and concepts of the style or is it way off base?
4. hold judgement unitl application is shown or determined at some point in the future.
5. does the 'correct' way follow the general flow and principals, theories and concepts of the style?
6 ETC., there's more but I can't think of them now but you get the idea.

CMA is an art and is made for every body type. Sets and techniques are expression of the art and how one uses certain techniques is a manner of preference and interputation. A good sifu understands this and will teach accordingly. A sifu who does not reconize this simple principle will disregard certain moves and calim that it is not useful or practical, too classical, or this never worked for me and will not pass these to his student.

Also as part of human nature, some sifus will tend towards certain movements because of his body type and will stress these moves that fit his body type. While other sifus who have that understanding mention above, will focus on teaching everthing as evenly as possible. Big responsability for teaching a style correctly.

Again CMA is an art and is not fixed to any one correct way. As long as the essence and the core of the style in question is passed onto the next generation is the most important focus.

Bottom line is "you have to trust your sifu".

My motto is "if it looks good, learn it. If it looks ugly, forget it".

[GeneChing]

WC originally asked if we knew if it was correct - that's a little different than knowing if something's incorrect.

I agree with NS on the whole, but I've never been big on the "trust your sifu" thing. Too cultish for me. I'm always the one to point out when the emperor has no clothes, and there seem to be more and more naked emperors walking around nowadays. I know, I know, I 'm a bad Confucian, but Confucius himself said something to the effect that all bets are off if the superior is evil. There are a lot of evil sifus - always have been, always will be.

On the flip side, I also have a slight contention with the "looks good" rule. I'd agree with this 90% of the time, but there is the occasional style that doesn't look good to me and I still respect it. Southern Praying Mantis and Wing Chun don't strike me as particularly beautiful externally, but I totally respect what they are doing.

[Mizong_Kid]

well i guess the more experienced you are...and if you are actually good at kung fu.......then you can question how things are done and maybe give an opposing view to those who see fit to correct you.........


but if your sifu is the teacher.......surely he will know all the answers

[r.(shaolin)]

Gene wrote:
I recently learned a

[buddhapalm]

WuShu Chick said :

"How do YOU know that your stuff is 100% right? Seriously, how do you know? Were you back there way back when...in the days of YSM and KYC?"

I will say that my stuff is right when it achieves the purpose intended.

Is the intention to destroy a room full of killers,

is the intention to perform a beautiful moving art form,

is the intention to become lost in ones art ?

Who can say what is real or what is right. For each person they have a unique purpose, whatever fulfills that purpose is right.

In my case I wish to learn the movements in a way that will dispatch a room full of killers. So every movement must be tuned to that purpose. If my Sifu changed a technique to make it more practical I will keep it, if I discover from my Kung Fu Uncle that a changed movement is less effective than the older movement, then I will practice the older version.

As my Sifu said, in China they did not "often" face 300 lb boxers, so he has to do what he has to do. What worked in 1940's Toisan did not work in 1960's San Francisco. Gangs of racist thugs encircling you at 3am. Circumstances change, opponents change, techniques change. Good steel never melts.

If one day we become better than our Sifu's by being smart and resourcefull then he/she should be proud. "A good student always has a good Sifu" is the saying. If you are good or become better, we can only bring honor and pride to our Sifu. If a Sifu truly cares for the student he will want to be surpassed. Perhaps even at the expense of a technique or two.

My Sifu once said, a student should become better than the teacher, I asked how can that be, he said a student can learn everything from the teacher, but can have other teachers and experiences which will make the student eventually better than the teacher.

Styles are vehicles of knowledge, martial knowledge. If we get hung up on what model car we each drive, then we are just comparing our mercedes benz's. So long as the movement, application, style and lineage work for you then it should be right.

Does your learning feel right for you ?

That is the question.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[GeneChing]

mk: Your Sifu is human too, and still learning. That's the great thing about kungfu - you never get to the end. There's always more to learn. I think it's a mistake to believe that he (or she) knows all the answers. That doesn't mean you shouldn't heed them, just that you should find your own answers too.

r.(s): Line four of tantui. I've been playing it as a hand tech. Now I play it as a shuai move. Works better and explains the backward stepping. It was the eye direction that had me confused. That's always tricky with shuai & na.

bp: I think its' right when it attract the most chicks. Darn, I must be doing something wrong. ;) Actually, I think enjoyment is the key. People always talk about fighting skills and such, which I do think is important, of course, but realistically, the majority of practictioner will never get in a real fight, never get to use it for real. So just enjoy it.

gh: On effectiveness, well, there's no subsitute for luck. I once lost a fencing bout to a younger kid (this was when I was a junior) who didn't know anything. I rushed him so hard he fell over. On his way down, he lost his sword. Before I could land my touch, his sword flew up and scored on my arm. True story. To quote Yogi Berra, I'd rather be lucky than skillful.

[guohuen]

Ha ha ha! How true.
I was teaching my younger sister to fish, showing her the finer points of casting and retrieving a spinner. Meanwhile she was bored and was nonchallantly jigging a spinner of the end of the dock. She hooked and landed the biggest bass I had ever seen up to that point.:p

[GeneChing]

Unfortunately I've used most of mine up in this field. Fishing too for that matter. And gambling. Time to move on to something like needlepoint...:p

[buddhapalm]

I guess I am doing something wrong too :-)))) I need to be in a room full of hot chicks instead of a room full of tattoed killers. No wonder my Sifu always called me stupid ....."Lin Hau".

I wonder if the room comes with a hot tub and sake.

But then again, look at what happened to that Japanese swordsman with the babycart (Babycart from Hades), hot chicks always tried to kill him with their sexy ninja skills and flying shuriken carrots.

Be prepared :-))))))) or die smiling.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[David Jamieson]

a little wisdom from the tragically hip regarding "knowing"

"You cannot know, you cannot not know".

hmmm, i think they may have borrowed that from Chang Tzu. :D

You will know that your kung fu is good when you defeat an attacker without bringing harm to them or yourself.

You will never know your art without applying it in some way shape or form. Including, just the expression of form.

True correctness of technique is measured biomechanically and through applicability.

If it hurts, you're doing it wrong. If it hurts the attacker, you're doing it right.

What does it matter, it's a good way to spend time on the planet.

peace

[GeneChing]

bp: Anyone who references Lone Wolf is OK with me. Sexy ninjas are the toughest.

kl: Tragically hip? Man, there you go bringing it back on to the topic again. Alright, you all really want to know? Here's the big secret: click here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/subscribe.php)

[buddhapalm]

Gene,

Lone Wolf is my hero.

You have to blame my Dad. He took me to blood spurting samurai movies when I was ten years old at the Kokusai theatre in Japan Town in the late 70's. We went every weekend. You must have been there too Gene ? Heads rolling down stairwells and limbs everywhere, I guess they forgot about pg-13 in Japantown. Great movies, great lessons of honor and bravery. I dont see those movies on tape or dvd anymore.

Perhaps that is what started my sick and twisted journey into the ways of the lone wolf :-)))))))

Thanks for kindling memories, anyway back to watching out for the flying shuriken carrots.

Cheers

[ghthomason]

"As early pioneers in the knowing, that when you lose your reason, you attain highest perfect knowing."--Jack Kerouac

[GeneChing]

bp: I'm a big fan of the samurai genre too. Especially Lone wolf and the Blind swordsman. Tomisaburo Wakayama and Shintaro Katsu - did you know they were brothers? But there was also all those great Nakadai films, and of course, the mighty Kurosawa epics.

Choose the sword, not the ball.

[Mizong_Kid]

not even sure if this message would be appropriate to this particular thread but i think in a way it does.........

i just came to realise something after my kung fu class......from the perspective of a student.....what you are taught and what you want to learn are two different things......

today i realised there is so much i can gain from my kung fu classes.....to simply go to your lesson to stretch, do your kicks, forms, and warm down is simply not enough if u want to be any good at all!

i realised that u need to go, be willing to seek answers for all ur questions.....and check everything you do.....because even the simplest of kicks or movements alone could be done incorrectly unless you find out......

i realised that many of the students who are senior to me are performing a number of the kicks incorrectly......yet my master and the highest senior students dont go around correcting every student......i think its because those students didnt make an effort to go and ask......

before i used to just watch others and follow.........nowadays i ask the highest senior students how to do things.....to make sure i am doing things right....and so even my master came over to me to show me how to do something properly.

i dont know......today my desire to practice kung fu just took a major boost....I LOVE KUNG FU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[David Jamieson]

Gene-

The chan is with you :D

or as a very knowledgable buddhist monk once exclaimed:

"bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha - ****, that's funny".

You know I'm faithful to the newstand. I will subscribe when I can no longer walk.

peace

[buddhapalm]

Ok Guys,
Now I can finally tie this Samurai genre to the thread at hand, ie Real technique.

The most inspiring Samurai movie I ever saw as a kid was about a kid about 10 years old, his family were killed by a gang of killers and he escaped (usual plot). In the village he witnessed a duel between two swordsmen, one dipatched the other with the calmness of a saint. The boy chased after the swordsman up the trail and begged to learn. The swordsman scolded the boy to get lost, but the boy followed for days without food. Finally the swordsman asked him why he wished to learn and he told his sad story. Anyway, the swordsman agreed to teach him his art and handed him a razor sharp katana. The teacher told him to attack him and cut him, the teacher sidestepped and cut him in the back. This was repeated everyday for about 8 or 10 years. This was his only method of learning....attack and then get cut in the back. When the kid had grown up you see him getting into the hot tub, when he takes off his shirt his back has thousands of scars on it. Now you know what kind of training he received. Of course you know what happened to the bad guys :-))))

To me this story may be a little farfetched, but not much. Perhaps the best method of learning combat is to be defeated constantly, until you close all your loopholes in defence and attack.

I believe there is much to learn regarding persistence, suffering and fighting spirit from our brothers in the land of the rising sun. I take my hat off to you Tomisaburo Wakayama.

(By the way Gene, there is a video store in Japantown with all the Tomisaburo Wakayama Killer Priest movies plus countless others. Its next to the coffee place inside.)

Cheers my friends

Buddhapalm

[HuangKaiVun]

If anybody is truly learning 100% of what's being taught, then I feel SORRY for that person.

Confucius once said "The teacher holds up one corner, the student comes up with the other three".

In kung fu, there are no two people that are exactly alike. The move that works for a 6'6" slow guy won't work the same for a 5'4" fast guy like myself. The same holds for males vs. females due to the anatomical differences.

I've studied from several different masters, none of whom were remotely like me in temperament and physiology. If I copied each one of them perfectly, I'd guarantee that I wouldn't find the best approach for ME.

In short, all the time I spent trying to pretend I was a 6'6" slow guy would be WASTED - and I'd find out the hard way during combat.

The goal in kung fu isn't to copy. The goal in kung fu is to maximize one's INDIVIDUAL potential.


r.(shaolin), I use Gene's move as a side hip throw.

Sometimes, I use an initial flurry of hand moves to freeze the opponent. While he's retreating, I attack and go for the throw. It works best for me when the opponent is in southpaw posture.

Like my other techniques, I trained Tan Tui Line 4 as if it had a chin na application. But when I go spar people, I don't go "I'm going to hit the guy with Line 4". I simply ATTACK and then go "I did Line 4" afterwards.

Cheng Man Qing is seen in one of his grainy black/white videos doing the same move as a varation of Single Whip, though the sparring partner Feng Yiyuan JUMPS to accommodate Cheng's lack of force in the move. Cheng does it as a side throw, not a takedown.


As far as touching hands, there are varying levels of effectiveness for the same move.

At least, Gene, you had the touching hands experience to KNOW if something worked better for you or not.

[Nick Lo]

Huang old chap, you never cease to amaze me. You mention that you've studied with all of these sifus. I would like to know how many of these sifus have actually given you permission to teach? Or are you getting away with it by saying you are teaching your own conglomeration of crap?

Pick a video series and stick with it. Or better yet, why dont you actually learn some legit stuff for once and actually put some time in like a decent martial artist would do. Oh wait, you can't rob unsuspecting gwai lo that way. You need to keep up the "I am Caine, i will help you..." image so that you can appear like the next gung fu messiah to poor unsuspecting white foreigners.

:rolleyes:

[r.(shaolin)]

Gene and HuangKaiVun

[David Jamieson]

i was under the assumption that the step behind double mantis hands portion of line four was a take down. and that the followup was a take out the leg and scoop move followed with the single whip palm strike at the end.

there's a lot going on in that road. :)

peace

[wushu chik]

Originally posted by Nick Lo
Huang old chap, you never cease to amaze me. You mention that you've studied with all of these sifus. I would like to know how many of these sifus have actually given you permission to teach? Or are you getting away with it by saying you are teaching your own conglomeration of crap?

Pick a video series and stick with it. Or better yet, why dont you actually learn some legit stuff for once and actually put some time in like a decent martial artist would do. Oh wait, you can't rob unsuspecting gwai lo that way. You need to keep up the "I am Caine, i will help you..." image so that you can appear like the next gung fu messiah to poor unsuspecting white foreigners.

:rolleyes:

Nick~
Why don't you go and tell US all where you've studied! You have SUCH the mouth about other people.....I am really REALLY interested in knowing who YOU'VE studied with!!!

Thanks guys for the answers!!

~Wen~

[HuangKaiVun]

Nick Lo, you obviously think that my Line 4 application sucks.

How do you suggest that Line 4 be used, then?

And when are we going to fight?

This is like the 62342th time I've challenged you AND your sifu.

[Nick Lo]

I have no clue what applications you are speaking of Huang. I just think that you are full of dookie and its hard to learn applications when you are too busy staring at your Sony Grandmaster™ Model Television rather than learning REAL kung from a WARM BLOODED human being.

So which video series is it this week Huang? Wing Lam? Jiang Jian Ye? Erle Montaigue? Yan Can Cook? Naked Chef?

As for your challenge, its coming sooner than you think my boy. I'm currently on holiday right now and i'll be swinging by your neck of the desert soon.

Nick Lo, coming to a town near you! :p

[Nick Lo]

WushuChik- Do you honestly think i would answer a question like that coming from a person like you? I've been reading these boards for a few winters now and i have yet to see anything remotely martial come from you. You started this whole thread and yet i'm very sure you yourself know little about kung fu at all. With the amount of time that you are on these forums, how is it that you have time to train? Then again, it must be hard trying to do kung fu in a trailer with 15 kids running around with Bubba sitting on the couch sipping 40's and watching Oprah.

You and Huangy are probably cut of the same cloth in that you most likely study from videos too. Although in your case Bubba hogs the TV all the time, so you are infront of the CRT all day instead of actually training yourself in something other than breeding.

You have the mistaken notion that i'm claiming some kind of skill. All i'm saying is that there are people on this board that dont deserve the time of day due to their fraudulent and nefarious actions.

Aloha and Mahalo,
Nick

[HuangKaiVun]

So if you have no skill, then your insistence that I have "fraudelent and nefarious" kung fu is totally BULLCRAP.

Just as I thought.

Nick, I REALLY WANT TO FIGHT YOU.

Why won't you let me test my kung fu against you AND your sifu?

[wushu chik]

Hey Nick!

Thanks for totally dodging my questions, because you have NO answer! I am sure it's fun for you to sit there and try to stir the pot with your big mouth and narrow minded comments! You come acrossed to me, as well as MANY others as a narrow minded little teenager, that enjoys trying to torment others with his schoolyard bully antics. Why don't you just come out and say who YOU'VE studied with? Or are you afraid we'll find out that you're as bad as you claim everyone else to be?

You can sit there and sling your bullsh!t accusations at me all day. The fact remains that I DO know kung fu, and that you're just annoyed because you can't get to me! Let me guess, you're just one of those guys with a big mouth and small pen!s that has to compensate for his manlyhood by picking on others!! Yeah, I do think that's it!!

~Wen~

[wushu chik]

Originally posted by Nick Lo
WushuChik- Do you honestly think i would answer a question like that coming from a person like you? I've been reading these boards for a few winters now and i have yet to see anything remotely martial come from you. You started this whole thread and yet i'm very sure you yourself know little about kung fu at all. With the amount of time that you are on these forums, how is it that you have time to train? Then again, it must be hard trying to do kung fu in a trailer with 15 kids running around with Bubba sitting on the couch sipping 40's and watching Oprah.

Hmm, explain to me when YOU yourself has said anything REMOTELY matial? I don't recall any time at all that you've done so! All you do is come on here, pretend to be some extremely knowledgable person, and bash people. I am sure that since you're such a young person, mommy has the computer blocked, and when she forgets to put it up, you come on here and "play" with the adults!


Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
So if you have no skill, then your insistence that I have "fraudelent and nefarious" kung fu is totally BULLCRAP.

Just as I thought.

Nick, I REALLY WANT TO FIGHT YOU.

Why won't you let me test my kung fu against you AND your sifu?

"Nick, I REALLY DO WANT TO FIGHT YOU." You are really starting to get on my nerves. You've become way to laughable to even make sense now Huang. Why don't you go fight yourself, because you are the ONLY ONE anymore that seems to be taking you seriously. You've blown it, honestly! You're no better than the rest that sit there and throw crap, and wanna fight everyone. You are NO BETTER than Nick himself.


NOW, BOTH OF YOU GET THE HELL OFF MY THREAD!!

Have a nice day! :D

~Wen~

[HuangKaiVun]

No more from me, wushuchik.

I'm just looking to TEST my Line 4 against him.

From the sounds of it, Nick will get his chance to face me after all.

[wushu chik]

HA HA HA, Huang, you keep thinking that. If you really think he's gonna go there, you're a fool. Can't you see when someone's playing you?? You're easier to string than a fiddle!! BWAHA HA HA HA HAHAHA HAH HA HA AHAA!!

~Wen~

[GeneChing]

...now on to Nick Lo, which seems strangely appropriate for this "how do YOU know??" thread. People are always down on video students and I've always thought that was silly. You learn your skills from wherever - from videos, books, wild animals, bar fights - skills are skills. Claiming lineage might be an issue, but being a video student, man, if you own a vcr, you had better be a video student, just like if you can read, you had better do so. Use every tool available to walk the warrior road. Which leads me to my question, my dear Shaolin brothers and sisters, should we ban Nick Lo?

[count]

Masters or teachers love when people attempt to learn from video's. It becomes a joke because they can readily identify who has had the experience and who is all talk. Others can easily see from their body movement or their words alone who is just faking it. I've never seen even the most honest teacher not change things when the camcorder was on. Commercial video's are worse. Things are deliberately changed so the teacher can recognize where it came from. Without the teachers corrections it's nothing more than an empty shell.

The only way to know for sure is to stay with a teacher long enough to learn the program and see others come and go and learn too. Besides, things are taught in layers and good teachers do change things over the years. Does that make it wrong because you use and open palm and later it becomes a cranes beak or something? Even than, a teacher will teach each individual what is appropriate for their particular size, shape, temperament, strength or weakness. If a teacher tells you the same thing works for you exactly as it does for the 6'4" 240lb guy in line next to you, I would head for the door.

Without long term, hands on training with the same system you will never know if you got the goods.

Within a system there are different branches with different interpretations or understandings of what the master taught. But somewhere in a "real" system there has to be some uniformity to make it recognizable across generations and from location to location. I think it is difficult to believe you are learning the "authentic" system. But if you can handle yourself and your body is healthy and strong does it matter? Or are we talking about passing it on to others?

PS: I'd like to know which version of Tan Tui you guys are talking about? I know 2 first hand and a third from a book/video. Line 4 is different in all 3. ;)

[wushu chik]

Originally posted by GeneChing
...now on to Nick Lo, which seems strangely appropriate for this "how do YOU know??" thread. People are always down on video students and I've always thought that was silly. You learn your skills from wherever - from videos, books, wild animals, bar fights - skills are skills. Claiming lineage might be an issue, but being a video student, man, if you own a vcr, you had better be a video student, just like if you can read, you had better do so. Use every tool available to walk the warrior road. Which leads me to my question, my dear Shaolin brothers and sisters, should we ban Nick Lo?

I don't think being a vid/book student is a BAD thing. But I do think that the person that is learning their stuff from vids/books should at least get their basics from SOMEONE that has martial arts experience. Even if it's Joe Blow down the block that has been in TKD for 11 years....get the basics from him and then learn your stuff that you'd like to learn. While I agree that it's not the BEST way to learn, you take what you can get!

I know personally, with my life...if it weren't for vids, i'd not remember HALF of what i've been taught! Why's that? Well, especially in this day in age, with so much to do, so much to remember, only so many hours in the day, etc....it's hard for people to retain as much as before. There's so much to learn, and so much to remember, that unless you learn for 8 hours a day in a LOT of cases, you're not gonna retain EVERY SINGLE DETAIL that you've been told to. For this type of situation, videos and books are a GREAT reference tool...so you can go back and say "OH YEAH, I forgot this...or that....".

Books are not the greatest way to learn a style, because you can't see exactly what they're trying to show you, such as angles, proper postures, positioning, etc. But, for history and knowledge, there's nothing better.

Gene~ When It comes to Nick Lo. I too am personally getting tired of seeing him slam EVERYONE, and not give any reference of WHY. But, I know that that if he is banned, he'll just come back as a different nickname and redo what he's been doing. So, I'd rather know who is doing it, then sit there and try to guess which person this one new nickname is!

Originally posted by Count
Masters or teachers love when people attempt to learn from video's. It becomes a joke because they can readily identify who has had the experience and who is all talk. Others can easily see from their body movement or their words alone who is just faking it. I've never seen even the most honest teacher not change things when the camcorder was on. Commercial video's are worse. Things are deliberately changed so the teacher can recognize where it came from. Without the teachers corrections it's nothing more than an empty shell.

Who's to say that these people don't already have MA experience and just want to learn something different? I know a TON of people on these here boards that go to a school, have a Sifu, and STILL have Sifu Lams vids in their closets!! Again, it's a great way to go back over something if you're not sure about it! And, if you know what you're looking for, you can look past all the marks in the vids! You just gotta know how to read them. I don't agree that without a teachers correction, it's an empty shell. For this reason! If a person is REALLY truly interested in learning something, but can't get to a school, for reasons of location, lack of transportation, etc....at least they're doing SOMETHING. WHO CARES. I'll agree that those that learn off vids and open a school, and then teach OTHERS their mistakes or bad habits is WRONG....but if they use it for their own personal use, I see nothing wrong with it.

Originally posted by Count
The only way to know for sure is to stay with a teacher long enough to learn the program and see others come and go and learn too. Besides, things are taught in layers and good teachers do change things over the years. Does that make it wrong because you use and open palm and later it becomes a cranes beak or something? Even than, a teacher will teach each individual what is appropriate for their particular size, shape, temperament, strength or weakness. If a teacher tells you the same thing works for you exactly as it does for the 6'4" 240lb guy in line next to you, I would head for the door.

OK, now here's a question for you. Say your Sifu gets into a car accident and is paralyzed of dies. What do you do then?? He's the ONLY Sifu that knows that art in your area? You move? Change jobs, etc.? NOT LIKELY. You do the next best thing if you're really intereseted and willing to continue learning. You order the vids and finish it up. Seriously, this is something that people need to think about!

Most Sifus, especially old school Sifus, will show you a line one or two times, then walk away and come back a while later to see if you've gotten it. So how can you tell me that they don't teach everyone the same thing? YOU have to learn what works for YOU. It's not your teachers place to teach everyone something different because they're a different build or a different shape, or a different weight/height...you get the point.

It's up to YOU, as a student who knows hs own body, to change it to how it feel comfortable to you. Otherwise, your Sifu be spending so much time trying to teach everyone something else that will adapt to their body needs that they'll be teaching constantly, and nobody will learn much at all! Just my opinion!!

Anyway, the reason for starting this WHOLE thread was because I don't know how many times I've heard that "My style is 100% correct, and yours isn't". Well, my opinion is...how do you know? Things have been so changed over the past many years, that you can't be 100% sure that it's the same as when it was made!!

~Wen~

[count]

Originally posted by wushu chik
I don't think being a vid/book student is a BAD thing. But I do think that the person that is learning their stuff from vids/books should at least get their basics from SOMEONE that has martial arts experience. Even if it's Joe Blow down the block that has been in TKD for 11 years....get the basics from him and then learn your stuff that you'd like to learn. While I agree that it's not the BEST way to learn, you take what you can get!

You can not compare the basics of TKD to those of bagua as an example that I am qualified to speak. Totally different mindsets and methods and to use one as foundation for another would do more harm than good.

I wouldn't disagree about the value of video as a training tool but as a learning tool it would be impossible to cover more than the surface in a 2 hour presentation. And than without that sifu to make the adjustments that you would need to practice you would only be reinforcing a weak foundation. If you don't believe me just ask your video if your spine alignment is correct and you have the right balance point.

OK, now here's a question for you. Say your Sifu gets into a car accident and is paralyzed of dies. What do you do then?? He's the ONLY Sifu that knows that art in your area? You move? Change jobs, etc.? NOT LIKELY. You do the next best thing if you're really intereseted and willing to continue learning. You order the vids and finish it up. Seriously, this is something that people need to think about!

The lesson of impermanence is the hardest one. Having been around only long enough to get a small fraction of what my sifu teaches I would be dependent on the senior students that have more. I know which ones have been shown what and who to ask. It's my responsibility to learn what I can while I can and pass it on when I am ready. It's the same for my teacher and for my student. That is the nature of the circle of knowledge.

Most Sifus, especially old school Sifus, will show you a line one or two times, then walk away and come back a while later to see if you've gotten it. So how can you tell me that they don't teach everyone the same thing? YOU have to learn what works for YOU. It's not your teachers place to teach everyone something different because they're a different build or a different shape, or a different weight/height...you get the point.


In a traditional school, and I am generalizing here, as you did, the sifu would not show anyone in the first place. It is the senior students who teach and the sifu will make the proper adjustments for you after. Learning a movement doesn't mean it will work until you make the movement your own. Any one can show you a movement or a form. A good teacher can identify weakness in body structure and make the necessary corrections. Tell you ways to practice that will make it work for you. How do you know if it is right? The teacher will give you permission to teach it to someone else.

Anyway, the reason for starting this WHOLE thread was because I don't know how many times I've heard that "My style is 100% correct, and yours isn't". Well, my opinion is...how do you know? Things have been so changed over the past many years, that you can't be 100% sure that it's the same as when it was made!!

I agree!!! The answer is anyone who says that doesn't know.


*disclaimer: The use of camcorders as a learning tool are invaluable. But even that can't replace your teachers watchful eye.:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Gene~

Don't ban Nik Lowe, he helps us to learn restraint and exercises our temperaments.

:D

I've been vid training for more than a year now, mind you, i've had several martial arts teachers and spent the last 7 or so years with a cma teacher of high caliber.

I agree, foundations and basics, which are the roots of any martial art are difficult to grasp from video. But, if you spend at leats 3 or so years with a decent martial arts teacher, you can likely get into books and videos.

You'll find out if you "know" when you have the unfortunate experience of applying what you have learned for real. Otherwise, training, in anything is good for your body and mind and I would encourage anyone to go forward by whatever means they can to understand what it is to have Kungfu.

peace

[wushu chik]

Originally posted by count


You can not compare the basics of TKD to those of bagua as an example that I am qualified to speak. Totally different mindsets and methods and to use one as foundation for another would do more harm than good.



Yeah, i'm gonna get flamed for this one....but here I go! I disagree with your first sentence "You can not compare the basics of TKD to those of bagua........". I am sorry, but a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick...the mechanics are the same. The principles are the same. The difference however is how the punch of kick is thrown, the positioning of the hand or foot, etc. It seems to me that the only reason people get ANGRY and offended about vid students is because they are taking money away from pockets of teachers that want the cashflow.

If a person's self disciplined enough to be able to do this, more power to them. If a person can't get to a school because there's NONE around them, more power too them. If a person is to learn from a video because they want a PARTICULAR style, and there's nothing like that for 100's of miles.....more power to them. It's all in how you look at it!

It's the future, we're never gonna stop it...it's just gonna get worse. I am sure most of you FEAR the internet classroom, where people are learning from their COMPUTER screens, from cyber Sifus and stuff. Well peeps, hate to break it to ya, but we're almost to that point!!!!!

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Don't ban Nik Lowe, he helps us to learn restraint and exercises our temperaments.

I have to disagree. He's just a moron. He doesn't help us learn anything, laugh at stupid little people :D

~Wen~

[Brad]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, the reason for starting this WHOLE thread was because I don't know how many times I've heard that "My style is 100% correct, and yours isn't". Well, my opinion is...how do you know? Things have been so changed over the past many years, that you can't be 100% sure that it's the same as when it was made!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I agree!!! The answer is anyone who says that doesn't know.
I agree too! :D
When I look at the Bajiquan of Su Yu Zhang, Tony Chen, and An Tian Rong I see lots of similarities but also lots of little differences too where each of their branches have made their own little changes over the years. If a system stays completely static throughout history then eventually it's going to be outdated and die.

[count]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
I agree, foundations and basics, which are the roots of any martial art are difficult to grasp from video. But, if you spend at leats 3 or so years with a decent martial arts teacher, you can likely get into books and videos.

Maybe with your experience and 3 years with the teacher you could. I have been with my teacher over 20 and tried without success to learn a more advanced form from a tape. CMA is too three dimensional for me to "get it" looking at a video. For me it requires hard contact and feedback from a teacher. But that's just me.

Originally posted by wushu chik

Yeah, i'm gonna get flamed for this one....but here I go! I disagree with your first sentence "You can not compare the basics of TKD to those of bagua........". I am sorry, but a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick...the mechanics are the same. The principles are the same. The difference however is how the punch of kick is thrown, the positioning of the hand or foot, etc. It seems to me that the only reason people get ANGRY and offended about vid students is because they are taking money away from pockets of teachers that want the cashflow.


No, I won't flame you for your comment. I assure you, there are major differences between the two. But if you have never studied both you couldn't know.

Honestly, I do not get offended or angry about what mistakes people make in martial arts choices or how well they understand what they have seen. It's their own karma to either get it or not. You can get lessons in the strangest ways if you're smart enough. Even if I were their teacher I could only point the way. If video's work for you, "more power to ya". But my post wasn't supposed to incite an argument with you about the merits, or lack of, in learning from videos. It's only my opinion that it really can't be done.

Originally posted by wushu chik
I have to disagree. He's just a moron. He doesn't help us learn anything, laugh at stupid little people :D

~Wen~
No, I'm gonna agree with Kung Lek on this one. His opinions are valid and are his own. I gotta laugh when he points out some of the things people say and how seriously they take themselves. People who over-react to a screen name deserve what they get. I agree with you that he could be more forthcoming with real information but in the meantime don't take it to heart. I know he insulted you, but he could be wrong. That's his karma. Yours is what you make of it.:cool:

[wushu chik]

No, I'm gonna agree with Kung Lek on this one. His opinions are valid and are his own. I gotta laugh when he points out some of the things people say and how seriously they take themselves. People who over-react to a screen name deserve what they get. I agree with you that he could be more forthcoming with real information but in the meantime don't take it to heart. I know he insulted you, but he could be wrong. That's his karma. Yours is what you make of it.

He didn't insult me. He doesn't even annoy me. I think he's funny actually....but he does get to some people. I personally think he's more of a kid than most the kids on here!

~Wen~

[GeneChing]

When my sifu Wing Lam and I first began working on his video series, we discussed the validity of video students a lot. Many of the students had concerns. They still do. But we both felt that the best thing for promotion of CMA was to open the door - the video door - document and distribute. I'm sure a lot of schools now teach our curriculum. In fact, we even had a few imposters over the years. But Sifu Wing Lam is very easy going about this - join his federation, take some private with him, and all is copesitic. He's not possessive or any secrets.

Can someone learn everything from video? It's within the realm of possibilities, certainly. Video is a 2D representation and CMA is a 3D art, but then again, we learn stuff from books. It's all a matter of how dedicated you are. I remember when Wing Lam first learned Sun Taiji from Paul Tam, he corrected Tam's form by using a book. There's immense value in book and vidoe training - use all your resources. Of course, you learn faster with a good teacher and even faster with a better one. It's all relative.

[count]

Originally posted by wushu chik
I personally think he's more of a kid than most the kids on here!

~Wen~
Yah, but next to Gene and I you are all kids. :p ;)

[David Jamieson]

Hey, gene's the same age as me!

I resemble that remark count! Choose your weapon!!!!

I choose tiddly winks, first one in the centre claims tyhe universe and No, I repeat NO twosies!

Amathaba

peace

[count]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Hey, gene's the same age as me!

I resemble that remark count! Choose your weapon!!!!

I choose tiddly winks, first one in the centre claims tyhe universe and No, I repeat NO twosies!

Amathaba

peace

Oh I wish I was as young as you two again. But than, turning 40 is about the worst birthday I remember. I wouldn't wish that on you.:D Anyway, I accept your challenge. *plink-plink*

[GeneChing]

We know what we know because we've lived through it. You gotta respect the old masters - they're the ones who are truly on to something. Just being hopeful, Yoda is my role model.

If things work out I may get a chance to interview a 110 year old master very soon. I saw some footage of him when he was 108 and he was totally alert, great posture and still busting moves. His forearms were still like rock.

[David Jamieson]

A teacher I once had said to me:

"The first person to make bread...now there was some learning"!

I countered, "Yeah, and whoever came up with beer".

All was well in our world, and I knew at that moment that true learning cannot be given, only expressed.

peace

[wushu chik]

You guys aren't THAT old....jeez.

Anyways, I just believe (again, going back to the topic of this thread) that there's no way anyone can say FOR SURE that the have 100% of what was originally taught! And, I am actually surprised, the ones on here that SAY SO, haven't come forth and said that there is! :D

~Wen~

[regulator]

let's dissect wushu trik's method of complaining about Nick Lo bit by bit, shall we?

"Gene~ When It comes to Nick Lo. I too am personally getting tired of seeing him slam EVERYONE, and not give any reference of WHY. "

well let's see.... from my count, Nick Lo has only slammed a few folks, and the common pattern seems to slam people that claim to be something they aren't... like yourself, TWS, etc. That hardly qualifies as "slamming everyone". you see, i'm sure Nick has things to do besides sit on a forum all day and talk like he knows alot but really doesn't, unlike yourself or other people he has exposed.

Let me guess, you're just one of those guys with a big mouth and small pen!s that has to compensate for his manlyhood by picking on others!! Yeah, I do think that's it!!

so if Nick is one of those "guys", and you're a female, what are you compensating for? Do you overcompensate for your fat belly, loud mouth, and multiple chins by raising hell when someone calls you on your sh!t? sure looks that way

All you do is come on here, pretend to be some extremely knowledgable person, and bash people.

I have researched Nick Lo's posts thoroughly, and nowhere do i find him to even remotely IMPLY that he is an "extremely knowledgeable person". I cover the "bashing" in an earlier section of this post.


HA HA HA, Huang, you keep thinking that. If you really think he's gonna go there, you're a fool. Can't you see when someone's playing you?? You're easier to string than a fiddle!!

kinda like you making everyone think you'll post a picture of what you really look like, huh "Wen"?

Nick has some good points. He says "You have the mistaken notion that i'm claiming some kind of skill. All i'm saying is that there are people on this board that dont deserve the time of day due to their fraudulent and nefarious actions."

in this , i salute Nick Lo, because he has the intestinal fortitude to do what many others do not; that is, call out the frauds and the fakes. what the hell do you do Wendy? you even created your own forum ... i took a look, it's practically a xerox copy of this one. oh but YOUR forum was supposed to be taken seriously, right? i guess that's why you called it some thugged out ghetto style name like "fu-ragz". now go back to cheering your idols on Jerry Springer... :rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

Actually, some thoerize that beer was created before bread. From what they can discern from most archeological finds, grains were originally consumed like oatmeal, boiled into a mush. They theorize that early people let some of those mushes go bad and ate it anyway, thus discovering the first buzz. Now that's a breakfast of champions. Appeantly in most early digs, there is always evidence of berr production but not always evidence of bread production. Now harvesting grain is the foundation of agricultural societies, the first step away from hunter/gatherer, so some theorize that it was beer that made us step out of the jungle and on to the farm. That makes a lot of sense to me, personally.

Maybe regulator, wushu chik and nick lo can take all the slamming outside. I hear fu-ragz is a good place for that. :rolleyes:

[buddhapalm]

How about the earliest martial arts methods. Could the first style have been the "Drunken Cave-Club Style" :-)))))

Its specialty the "18 Fermented Demented Oatmeal Pounding Staff", or "108 Madman's Whirlwind Pestle".

Sorry guys, I must have ate too much of that oatmeal myself this morning.

Perhaps we all should ;-)))))

Buddhapalm

[GeneChing]

For those of you that think we've gone of topic here, consider this. Some European medieval monks lived on a diet of beer and vegetables. The tradition of beer brewing has monastic research in the brew - in fact, in my humble opinion, the finest beer in the world is still brewed by trappist monks. I like to think their teachings are passed down in there work. And the more lessons I take, the more I know.

[David Jamieson]

Chimay beer is the notable potable. Brewed by monks fo' long long time. Belgians dey is.

Frankly, thank goodness for refrigeration, cause you know they were only getting drunk from eating fermented food. Likely this brought on visions of "spiritual" proportions. The bringer of which of course they would learn and refine into beer.

Gene~ it's too hot where you are to really appreciate oatmeal.
Up here it just sticks to your insides and keeps you warm for the 15 minutes it take to get to the bus stop, or warm up the car. Oatmeal is survival gear in canada.
... as is beer. :D

peace

[HuangKaiVun]

No, don't ban Nick Lo.

LET HIM COME.


And regulator, you ought to know what you're getting yourself into.

You want to call me a fake, you can do that. Just know that my kung fu exists in the physical realm.

We should meet each other in person to discuss your views. Perhaps you might keep your low opinion of me afterwards.

[GeneChing]

You can tell a lot about a people what kind of beer they brew.

As for oatmeal, I appreciate for what it does for my regularity. It's a good regulator. :p