Shared Hakka Fist Histories?

[Kevin Barkman]

Greetings Short Hand Brothers!

There was a previous post about Lam Yiu Kwai, Lao Sui, and Cheung Lai Cheun all hanging out in the same teahouse in Hong Kong which sent me into hours of research trying to find connections between these three in the resources I have. I found out that all three were born in the "Wai Yeung" village/province of Guangdong. This is in the East River area (Tung Fung) - and close to Lau Fou Shen Mountain. I have been unable to locate this site to determine its exact location (through atlas's / internet) and population size. Knowing the pop. would help in either supporting my theory or detracting from it.

It appears that all three were born at the same time as well (LYK in 1876, CLC in 1880). I speculate Lao Sui was born around 1878, when I do the math subtracting various dates posted in his life 1878 - 1942?)

LYK and CLC were known as "the Two Tigers of East River" but no mention of Lao Sui. Also, from the speculation out there, the Lam Family studied from the "Hai Fung" Monk (who IKF names as "Huang Nian Jiao). This same Monk taught a man named "Liang Hua Su Ren" who taught CLC. Of course, there is the Monk named Tai Yuk as well (at Lau Fou Shen).

From the magazine articles out there on Chu Gar (written by Gene Chen and Paul Whitrod), they say Lao Sui learned his Art from a Wong Fook Gao (who was also born in Wai Yeung). However, I believe the source said that all three also learned from a "Chung Yel Jung" - the Poisen Snake, in Hong Kong. Is there dispute in the S. Mantis community over who Lao Sui learned from? It seems that Lum Sang is not connected with Lao Sui's lineage. Much of the info I have comes from the huge Southern Praying Mantis historical collaboration on the Net (by F. Blanco). I am wondering about this connection. Also, I am wondering about the possibility of Chung Yel Jung being called "the poisen snake" and Lung Ying's top form (one of) being called Poisen Snake Flicks / Hides Tongue.

Therefore (to sum), we have 3 kung-fu brothers, with a possible 4 shared teachers. The fact that Lung Ying does not mention Wong or Chung, to me suggests either a desire to seperate, or a completely seperate lineage.

Anyway, this is probably about as interesting as the dust balls in my closet to just about everyone except 10 people out there! Personally, I can't get enough of it!

By the way - for all you die hard Bak Meirs and Dragoners, Chow Fook's student in Hong Kong (CS Tang) has written a book on Lung Ying Mor-Kiew, which is now printed and can be purchased through their web-site (go to HK Chinese Martial Arts Association site). Haven't seen it yet - just ordered it! Looks awesome!

Cheers and Happy (Chinese) New Year to You!

Smashing Bridge Kevin

[David]

Does Chung Yel Jung mean poison snake? Chow Gar has a pole form called poison snake.

Gene Chen and Paul Whitrod have never mentioned Chung Yel Jung in any articles I've seen.
There is dispute over a couple of things regarding Lau Sui. One is who he trained under - which is disputed by various of Jook Lum. The other is his marital relationship to the Ip's which was erroneously described by Gene Chen in an article and then spread all over.

There's more of interest in what you say but you wrote so compactly that it'll take a while to extract all you say.

[Kevin Barkman]

Hi David - thanks for replying!

Could you tell me what the theories are out there about who Lao Sui learned from? Is he connected in any way to Lum Sang? Did Lao Sui learn most of his Art on the South Mainland, or in Hong Kong?

I think "Poisen Snake" translates as Dok Se - apparently, this was CYJ's nickname.

I heard that Yip Sui married Lao Sui's daughter - is that not correct? Just curious from your comment.

Its funny how these common histories are only 50-60 years old but its like a thick fog has descended down on this period, and no-one seems to know anything about it! Makes me all the more curious!

Cheers - Kevin

Kevin

Yip Sui never married Lau Soi's daughter. And his wife pass away last year.

Wilson

Sorry just a few points to follow.

Lum Yil Gruw, came to HK during the 2ndWW. And stayed and teached for a few yrs, then he came back to HK to settle at 1958.
Cheung Lai Chung settled in HK with his 3 sons only at late 40s. Although he has been to HK many times before and a close friend of Lau Soi.
According to a publishment made by the "Mo Lum Chow Bo" (Wu-Lin weekly) in the 70s. Dai Yuk Sim Si and Jook Fai Wan are Si Hing Dai and they both teaches the art of Mor Kui. That's why the similarities of Mor Kui in both Bak Mei and Lung Ying.
Lau Soi cames to HK during the 1910s where he started teachings in Shar Gay Van in HK island. His birth place is called Kwoon Yum Kwok in Wai Yeung, Canton.

Just hope these information may help in your research.
Wilson

[Kevin Barkman]

Hi Wilson - thanks very much for sharing this information! It does indeed help!

I think its like putting a giant puzzle together, and trying to find the pieces which fit together. I only have a small part of the puzzle put together, but every new piece opens new possibilities!

Anyway, your reply raised two more questions in my mind....first, is "Kwoon Yum Kwok" a village in "Wai Yeung" Province? Do you or anyone else know why I can't find it on any map/atlas of Southern China? Is this a Hakka transliteration? Is there a Mandarin name for this?

Second (and more interesting!), when you say the "Art of Mor-Kui", is it your impression that this was the name of the Art before they were called by the newer session names? This may be common knowledge to everyone but me, but I'd greatly appreciate any insights into this!

Many thanks! kevin

Kevin

You're welcome. First, Kwoon Yum Kwok, is cantonese. Not sure about the Mandarain. Secondly, Kwoon Yum Kwok is an area just like Bok Law for LYG in Wei Yeung, and Wei Yeung is in Kong Don which I think is what you meant by province.
What I meant by art of Mor Kui is not trying to impose it as a style. It is a name of sets that share by BM and LY, which are very identical.
Wilson

Now see? THIS is the cool stuff. Breathes life into the people who are otherwise just pictures on the wall. Before you ask, no, I don't study Hakka Kuen of any sort, but I've always found it fascinating, if a little hard to locate. But the histories of the martial arts and which teachers knew each other and how that may have influenced the arts is very interesting.



It's also nice to see some civilized discussion on these boards for a change. Thanks.



------------------
Nothing beats the Sizzling Rice Fist and the Hot and Sour Palm

[Lau]

Hi,

I just purchased a book from Hong Kong about Lung Ying Mor Kiu. I think it has a lot of info about the history of dragon style and maybe Pak Mei in it. It has information in English, but most of it is in Chinese which I can't read.............. I will try to find someone to translate it for me.

Or has someone on this board allready read this book? If so, can you please tell me more about the information in chinese in this book? (It can be found on http://www.go.to/cstang )

Regards, Lau

[wisdom mind]

is Pak Mei considered Hakka style?

thanks for this answer and ...
good post with info on CLC. Thanks

Hakka Kung Fu consists of 3 styles Tong Long, Loong Yan and Pak Mei. And Tong Long divided into 4 branches Chow Gar, Chu Gar, Jook Lum and Tit Au( Iron Ox).


Wilson

[wisdom mind]

Thank you !

Anyone know of resources on Hakka KF or more specifically the life of my Sigung Cheung Lai Chun?
(besides the book: Pak Mei Kung Fu by H.B. Un?)

Thanks again.

I'm not too sure of the 'true' facts on the histories of Hakka Kung Fu, but this is what I have been related to by my sifu. Apparntly, hakka people, not being too popular with the rest of the Chinese wondered around China as nomads.
Being such, there was a need for self defence. Thus Hakka Kung Fu was born.

Southern Mantis, Pak Mei and whatever all came from the Hakka people. So if you like, they are all just different parts of the same whole.

Anyway, now to my Si-Tai-Gung Lao Shui and Si-Gung Ip shui. No, Lao Shui had no children of his own. But yes, Ip Shui and Lao Shui are related by some way that I've just forgotten, if you want to know how they are related, e-mail me, I'll ask sifu in the morning.

From what I here (note, I practise Chow Gar so this could be bias)... Lao Shui had many students. One of which is the grandmaster of Chu Gar. Apparently, the name Chow in hakka sounds very similar to Chu, so this Chu guy changed the actual spelling giving himself the title of grandmaster. Jook Lum is also another variant of the system... Obviously, this all happened straight after Lao Shui's death.

Note, the only system of southern mantis which has no link to Chow Gar in Iron Ox. The style was/is completely seperate from Chow Gar. But note this also, In the Chow Gar system...A form from the Iron Ox system is taught... So there has been trade in techniques but the origins differ.

Also, does anyone actually do Chu Gar? I have a few questions on the way you guy's do your Sam Bo Jin form....

[mantis108]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kevin Barkman:
Greetings Short Hand Brothers!

There was a previous post about Lam Yiu Kwai, Lao Sui, and Cheung Lai Cheun all hanging out in the same teahouse in Hong Kong which sent me into hours of research trying to find connections between these three in the resources I have. I found out that all three were born in the "Wai Yeung" village/province of Guangdong. This is in the East River area (Tung Fung) - and close to Lau Fou Shen Mountain. I have been unable to locate this site to determine its exact location (through atlas's / internet) and population size. Knowing the pop. would help in either supporting my theory or detracting from it.

I remember it was said the Lum and Cheung were cousins.

It appears that all three were born at the same time as well (LYK in 1876, CLC in 1880). I speculate Lao Sui was born around 1878, when I do the math subtracting various dates posted in his life 1878 - 1942?)

LYK and CLC were known as "the Two Tigers of East River" but no mention of Lao Sui. Also, from the speculation out there, the Lam Family studied from the "Hai Fung" Monk (who IKF names as "Huang Nian Jiao). This same Monk taught a man named "Liang Hua Su Ren" who taught CLC. Of course, there is the Monk named Tai Yuk as well (at Lau Fou Shen).

It was also said that Lum and Cheung learned some forms or a system called Sam Bo Tyui from a traveller called Hoi Fung Si. So, I believe Lum and Cheung are Kung Fu fanatics who would pursuit as many arts as they could to achieve personal best.

From the magazine articles out there on Chu Gar (written by Gene Chen and Paul Whitrod), they say Lao Sui learned his Art from a Wong Fook Gao (who was also born in Wai Yeung). However, I believe the source said that all three also learned from a "Chung Yel Jung" - the Poisen Snake, in Hong Kong. Is there dispute in the S. Mantis community over who Lao Sui learned from? It seems that Lum Sang is not connected with Lao Sui's lineage. Much of the info I have comes from the huge Southern Praying Mantis historical collaboration on the Net (by F. Blanco). I am wondering about this connection. Also, I am wondering about the possibility of Chung Yel Jung being called "the poisen snake" and Lung Ying's top form (one of) being called Poisen Snake Flicks / Hides Tongue.

Lung Ying's forms are basically in 3 stages. From first form "16 moves" to the highest 7 routines of Plum Flower fist. Poison Snake Flicks Tongue is an intermediate form. It is one of the five original forms which Lum learned from Ta Yuk sim si.

Therefore (to sum), we have 3 kung-fu brothers, with a possible 4 shared teachers. The fact that Lung Ying does not mention Wong or Chung, to me suggests either a desire to seperate, or a completely seperate lineage.

It seems that Lum and Cheung shared many comment background yet develope into two individual systems. It is quite common to meet a Lung Ying and Bak Mei Student. My Sifu Chow Fook is an example.

Anyway, this is probably about as interesting as the dust balls in my closet to just about everyone except 10 people out there! Personally, I can't get enough of it!

By the way - for all you die hard Bak Meirs and Dragoners, Chow Fook's student in Hong Kong (CS Tang) has written a book on Lung Ying Mor-Kiew, which is now printed and can be purchased through their web-site (go to HK Chinese Martial Arts Association site). Haven't seen it yet - just ordered it! Looks awesome!

Great, thanks for the info.

Cheers and Happy (Chinese) New Year to You!

Smashing Bridge Kevin

[/quote]

[mantis108]

Hi Wilson,

I wonder if you are a Lung Ying and Bai Mei brother. If you would share some of your views on the systems. I'm very interested in contacting students of these systems. Please feel free to contact me at sifu1@internorth.com

mantis108

[Lau]

Any new insights on this story? I find this story much more likely than the 5 elders story.

Regards, Lau

[handsome]

Kevin--Great stuffs and just want to say "thank you". ;)

For all the chow gar guys, you guys should wake up, the only true and original art of southern praying mantis is CHU GAR TONG LONG, not chow gar, chow gar was from Chu Gar ;) ;) please ask sifu GENE CHAN and he will give you the true history of southern praying mantis and why the chow gar was a mistake from the past, CHU is name, not chow, maybe its time for chow gar lineage change their name back to the original name CHU GAR TONG LONG. ;)

[mantis108]

Just some thoughts, I missed last time:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There was a previous post about Lam Yiu Kwai, Lao Sui, and Cheung Lai Cheun all hanging out in the same teahouse in Hong Kong which sent me into hours of research trying to find connections between these three in the resources I have. I found out that all three were born in the "Wai Yeung" village/province of Guangdong. This is in the East River area (Tung Fung) - and close to Lau Fou Shen Mountain. I have been unable to locate this site to determine its exact location (through atlas's / internet) and population size. Knowing the pop. would help in either supporting my theory or detracting from it.[/quote]

Guangdong is a province.
Wai Yeung - I think is either the alias of the East River region or the name of a county. I will have to check on that. It is quite common that people and places have aliases in China. That's where the confusion comes in. The village that GM LYK was born in was call To Po Tau in Bor Low County.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>LYK and CLC were known as "the Two Tigers of East River" but no mention of Lao Sui. Also, from the speculation out there, the Lam Family studied from the "Hai Fung" Monk (who IKF names as "Huang Nian Jiao). This same Monk taught a man named "Liang Hua Su Ren" who taught CLC. Of course, there is the Monk named Tai Yuk as well (at Lau Fou Shen).[/quote]

Hoi Fung is also a place name. It is believed that Huang (Wong in Cantonese) might have been from or famous in Hoi Fung which is also alias of Chu Chou. It's sort of like the De or Van De in European convention. Name is a big thing in Chinese culture. The more Names (titles as well) you have the more "established or accomplished" you are.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>From the magazine articles out there on Chu Gar (written by Gene Chen and Paul Whitrod), they say Lao Sui learned his Art from a Wong Fook Gao (who was also born in Wai Yeung). However, I believe the source said that all three also learned from a "Chung Yel Jung" - the Poisen Snake, in Hong Kong. Is there dispute in the S. Mantis community over who Lao Sui learned from? It seems that Lum Sang is not connected with Lao Sui's lineage. Much of the info I have comes from the huge Southern Praying Mantis historical collaboration on the Net (by F. Blanco). I am wondering about this connection. Also, I am wondering about the possibility of Chung Yel Jung being called "the poisen snake" and Lung Ying's top form (one of) being called Poisen Snake Flicks / Hides Tongue.[/quote]

Huang Nian Jiao and Wong Fook Gao MIGHT very well be the same name with different pronounciations. This happens all the time. There are over hundred of dialects in China and to mention most of the time teaching are orally done. We might tend to think that old masters don't "cross train" but if we look closely at history...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Therefore (to sum), we have 3 kung-fu brothers, with a possible 4 shared teachers. The fact that Lung Ying does not mention Wong or Chung, to me suggests either a desire to seperate, or a completely seperate lineage.[/quote]

As far as my research goes, it were GM LYK's father and uncle who went to learn from Hoi Fung Si. GM CLC learned from GM LYK's uncle Lum Hop or sometime know as Lum "Ah" Hop. The "Ah" is a slang accent added in for names that are composed of 2 characters. It "sounds" better and more powerful for Cantonese. Technically, they were Sihingdei. I speculate that Sam Bo Tyui concept was from Wong. If we compare Lung Ying's Sup Luk Dong (16 Moves) and Bak Mei's Jik Bo (striaght Steps), we can see that there would some kind of a jong (on guard position) and then the left Bil Ji - right punch combo. Further more they are both taught as the novice first form. To me, it's kind of like the Boxing's 1-2 combo but in the Hakka arts it has more flare with same if not more efficiency. Just a thought.


Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[CLOUD ONE]

Mantis,
could you clear up some thing?
Was ClC a master of LungYing before he studied Pak Mei? If so what did he change in his LungYing to become PakMei? I don't want to have a flame war. I am seriously interested.

[FIRE HAWK]

Bak Mei (White Eyebrow)

One of the styles placing it's origins from the shaolin temple by the Monk Bak Mei. This art is often considered a traitors art because of the supposed actions of the monk that is said to cause the destruction of the shaolin temple. Bak Mei was said to have killed monk Jee Shim in some stories and was him self killed by one of the remain shaolin monks. Some do not believe this story and feel the story is altered from the truth. As most martial arts history the legends are often twisted or even entirely made up. What is passed down as history in Bak Mei is that master Cheung Lai Chun brought this art to the public after learning it from monk Chuk Fat Wan who had been a Daoist disciple at Kwang Wai temple at Sze Chuan where Bak Mei him self is said to have taught. He moved to Canton and came across Cheung Lai Chun who was already a master of Lee gar, Dragon(Lung Ying), and Gypsy style. After Being bested by a monk in a restaurant, Cheung followed the monk to his master and was able to persuade monk Chuk Fat Wan to teach him Bak Mei. In any case Bak Mei is a very effective style that uses powerful strikes and a triangular foot work common to many southern arts like Dragon style and Wing Chun. Although Bak Mei seems very external and powerful, it is not a truly hard style. The principle use both yin and yang to combine soft and hard. Power release is executed upon contact only. Much of Bak Mei's power comes from the back and is often utilized by their famous phoenix eye punch. Strikes are often aimed for softer areas or pressure points instead of smashing style blows that can be found in Hung Gar and other styles This system uses a combination of straight and circular attacks but the circular attacks are not as great as those of choy lee fut but can come from various angles. Training can be very intense utilizing body conditioning and weight training in the version I have seen. Strikes are fast and lethal and launched from a solid even weight distributed stance which is a wider than wing chun and utilizes a 50/50 stance work. I am slightly confused about the forms which are authentic Bak Mei and what sifu Cheung may have taught form his past training if anything. I have heard that they teach over 40 different forms by one source and I have visited another site that only lists about 20. In HB Un's Book Pak Mei Fung Fu, he says master Cheung learned several forms previously from Lee gar, Dragon Style, and Gypsy Style that have the same name as traditional Bak Mei. I don't know if they are the same or just have the same names. But some of the basic forms include Sup Jee (Cross pattern), Kou Bo Teaw (nine step push), Fancy Panther, Sup Bat Mor Kiu (18 ghost bridge), 7 point plum flower, and Tiger step movements. Sub Jee is usually considered a basic form that contains many of Bak Mei's key principles. Weapons include spear, staff, broad swords, bench, chain and various other weapons.

[WenJin]

According to the link below :
http://www.hku.hk/cmaclub/resource-center/malibrary/leeka.htm

Lei Ga Kuen is very much a Hakka art! as well

just for sake of completeness.

[Lau]

Good to see that I'm not the only one who stay's interested in the real history of Pak Mei. Here are some of the questions I have on this:

1 Did CLC create Pak Mei himself after learning art of Mor Kiu from Jook Fai Wan? Or did he learn the Pak Mei style from him?
2 Who was Chung Yel Jung and what was his role?
3 If, like Wilson quoted Dai, Yuk Sim Si and Jook Fai Wan are Si Hing Dai and they both teached the art of Mor Kui, it would mean that both have the same original forms. Are these original forms still to be found somewhere?

Regards, Lau

[Buby]

If Chuk Fat Wan was a doist disciple why is he shown in pictures with a buddist robe?


Thanks in advance.

buby

[Buby]

I found this looking through one of Eddie Chong's student's websites. I'll be pasting bits and pieces of it along with the web address if anyone is interested in reading their whole site.

What I'm about to attach is what I guess would be considered part/whole of Eddie Chong's lineage. I don't think they claim CLC's lineage, it's difficult for me to tell cause I stink when it comes to matching chinese names.

Anyway guys I hope you enjoy the reading!!!

"The system was passed on to Monk Kwong-Wei, Jui-Yuen, and Monk Fah-Yuen. Then later to the Great Master Cheung Lai-Chun and Liu Chou-Leung, etc., until now.

This style of White Eyebrow taught decends from the Buddhist Sect.

Sifu Dr. Ko and his son, Sifu Michael Coconis, are both students of Yin-Cheung "Eddie" Chong. Sigung Chong's sifu is Lee, Yong Kien, and is located in Foshan City (formally Fatshan), Guangdong Province, Peoples Republic of (Mainland) China. Sigung Lee's sifu is the legendary Lau,
Siu Leung of Canton. Mr. Lee is a closed-door student of Mr. Lau and Mr. Chong is a closed-door student of Mr. Lee. The traces of Mr. Lau go back to Fung Fou Dao Yan(Wind Fire Daoist), whose birthname is not known at this time."

This style of White Eyebrow taught decends from the
Buddhist Sect.

Sifu Dr. Ko and his son, Sifu Michael Coconis, are both
students of Yin-Cheung "Eddie" Chong. Sigung Chong's sifu
is Lee, Yong Kien, and is located in Foshan City (formally Fatshan), Guangdong
Province, Peoples Republic of (Mainland) China. Sigung Lee's sifu is the legendary Lau,
Siu Leung of Canton. Mr. Lee is a closed-door student of Mr. Lau and Mr. Chong is a
closed-door student of Mr. Lee. The traces of Mr. Lau go back to Fung Fou Dao Yan
(Wind Fire Daoist), whose birthname is not known at this time."

http://www.komudokwan.com/bakmei.html


Is this a different lineage?

Can some of the names of the past masters be cross referenced to the masters that CLC learned from?

Thanks in advance,

Bub

[tnwingtsun]

see my e-mail

[honorisc]

Southern Shao-lin: Phoenix-Eye Fist by Dreager and Cheung, years ago.

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[ngokfei]

Just came across a blurb regarding Lam Yiu Gwai, Cheung Lau Chuen and Li Sui. I found it in
Secrets of Kung Fu vol3no.4 from 1979.

The Three Tigers of the Eastern River Valley
by Michael Luk

These are 3 famous exponents of the Eastern River Vally (also known as the Pearl River Delta) of Kwangtung Province. They are Grand Master Lin Yao Kui of the Dragon Form Mo Chiao Style, Grandmaster Chang Li Chuan of the White Brow Style and Grandmaster Liu Cheng Chu of the Southern Praying Mantis Style. Lin Yao Kue, son of Lin Ching Yuan, learned the kung fu of the Mo Chiao Style from Monk Ta Yu. Chang Li Chuan followed Lin Hsia and was later taught the pugilistic skill of the White Brow Style by Monk Chu Fa Yun. Liu Chen Chu (Alias Liu Shui) is the first person to teach the Southern Praying Mantis Style in Hong Kong. His teacher was Wang Fu Kao.


thats all of it. Again Mandarin Names I think. :confused:

eric Hargrove
ngokfei@juno.com

[Kevin Barkman]

Hi Mr. Hargorve,

Thanks for posting that bit. Does the article say anything else?

Unfortunate transliteration attempt - but better than not trying at all, eh?

Are these magazines still available for purchase?

Cheers - kevin

[bigbear1]

If anyone is instrested Johnnie hui came from H.K. in the 70's and stayed with chan wah at Edmonton AB. Johnnie was the #1 student in Canada at the time and He taught the dragon and bak mei style to Chan Wah. Johnnie Hui now lives in Vancouver and well worth the look up as he is the first or one of the first to teach the dragon style in public. He taught at the green dragon School. His teacher was Chow Fook.

[Fu-Pau]

Haka... first and last story:

http://media.putfile.com/haka87

;)

[fiercest tiger]

Jesus that is bring back the past or what?

I think they all had the same teacher.....:eek:

[Ao Qin]

:) Hi bigbear1 - please check your pm.

Interesting for this topic to be resurected after 5 years...a good lesson for everyone on these forums - "make your words sweet, not sour, because someday, you may have to eat them".

I have an article written by JH - very well done!

Cheers - kevin

[kungpow]

in reply to post #13. from what i understand through jook lum lineage is that spm is not a hakka art in origin, though, it was introduced to the hakka dock workers through the poison snake cheung yel chung. from what i understand, som dot is the creator and also a monk though i do not know thru what temple he belonged.