Footwork in SLT?

[S.Teebas]

I was training the other day and while doing the SLT i came over an idea of the footwork in WC found in the SLT form.

I was wondering if anyone else sees this, and where in the form they see it? ....or should i say feel it. ;)

[AndrewS]

I'm there with you.

I think all footwork is implied in SNT, and I often visualize certain footwork (engaging the leg and torso muscle chains which support it in a smaller manner) while performing it. The passing step fits very nicely with the jum/gan/lau of the 6th set, and almost requires one think of the body like you would while doing that 'normal' gait from the knife form.

I also just pick pieces out and work them directly with various footwork.

FWIW,

Andrew

[reneritchie]

The SLT I learned has the opening and closing horse (Hoi Ma, Sao Ma) which include the toe-out and toe-in steps. Anyone who's seen a little Bagua knows these can be quite dynamic footwork (geuk faat, in the complete sense of mobility and defense/offense movements).

Beyond that, WCK IMHO is modular and you can put movements from SLT together with any footwork as the situation demands. Some teachers even have SLT where they've integrated what they believe to be optimal coordinated footwork as examples for their students, and some systems like Cho Ga have sets that are elaborations on parts of SLT including examples of footwork coordination.

RR

[AndrewS]

Hey Rene,

nice point about the opening/closing of the stance. The explanations I've heard for that are pretty analogous to the bagua actions you describe. We also explain those as the first place yup (tan) and bong gherk are found (and I would argue that the initial sink with feet together contains the elements of the kick and much leg work).

A question- not sure if your Chum Kiu has this- step up with double man sao from double low bong sao- if so, do you interpret that step up as an application from toe in/toe out? Just curious.

Andrew

[aelward]

I have heard that Sifu Chris Chan (Yip Man student) has integrated significant footwork into both his SNT and BJ forms.

Might be able to get an idea from: http://www.uswingchun.com

[reneritchie]

Andrew,

I didn't learn a lot along the lines of tan/bong gerk etc. (don't even use those terms) and we don't do chi gerk, we do have rather visible cirlcing movements preceding kicks which we use to evade incoming kicks, and rising movements which we use to obstruct if we're a bit slow in evading 8), but I like the way you break it apart like that.

In that section of Chum Kiu, we go from double mid-level Pao Bong (throwing wings) into a nameless movement we kind of slang-call embracing arms (since they look like Taiji's embrace the moon). Their obvious application is the standing guillotine choke or the body wrap throw, depending on how high you apply it (or really a lot of other throws or kum na movements). The footwork does have a little toe-out (to toe straight) which is handy for making sure you can then follow up in any direction a resistant opponent might try and take you.

RR

[AndrewS]

Hey Rene,

hmm- so you take a an arc on the way in with the leg? I think this is one of those 'more easily shown' things- as some of what I do for leg contact has components of rising and arcing- basically (from C2), the knee of the (counter) kicking leg draws in front of the support knee, perhaps with the lower leg going slightly back, as the knee comes up and forward in front of the support knee, occupying the somewhat nebulous 'low centerline (a serious theory geek-out I don't like getting near) and progressing up it to some place in between the two upper thighs (again, which and why is a theory geekout I don't have enough coffee or will in for me right now, and personally, I'm just happy to have a leg in the way when a hard thai kick comes). If contact is made at any point besides release of force, a chi gherk action occurs- pak, gum, bong, yup, jut, huen, etc. (and lots of kao, kao seems to be a very useful thing with the legs). Digression aside- is what I describe precontact at all like your circling movements?

The chum kiu thing- we go low to high from wide to close- essentially describing the range of the bong sao. I've seen the weight shift and change in shin angle here used to describe a shin lock/low leg control based on either toe in/or toe out, and applied as a truely obnoxious defense against a low shooter (ankle level)- getting head control with the shin.

Standing guillotine I can see- body wrap throw? Wuzzat? Do you interpret the mechanics of this step up as having slight back extension?

Mechanics-wise- the simultaneous motion of hand and foot, and simultaneous conclusion of each has been heavily stressed to me in this section (an 'external harmony' thing, IMHO)- do you take that message home here too?

Andrew

P.S. Umm, shouldn't we be having a flamewar, or insulting random lineages with minimal understanding of them? Is this sort of discourse *allowed* on this board? Oh well, I'm sure someone will be along to hijack the thread shortly.

P.P.S. We need to hit a serious discussion on short power at some point. I think I disagree with an offhand remark of yours in the chi sao tournament thread, and am curious.

[teazer]

Oh well, I'm sure someone will be along to hijack the thread shortly.

Maybe most everyone's eyes are busy crossing trying to work out what your talking about!

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Originally posted by teazer


Maybe most everyone's eyes are busy crossing trying to work out what your talking about!

If people can't follow along, they should spend more time practicing and less time posting. ;)

[reneritchie]

Hi Andrew,

Yup with the easier shown, but let's give it the ole collige try. We usually have an outward rotation of the foot accompanied by an outward circling movement in the sets as a preface to the kick (all our kicking movements in the sets are compound movements that contain an initial evasion, an intermidary obstruction, and then one or more kicking actions (thrust, press, snap, nail, etc.)). So, for example with Chuen Sum Gerk (the front kick that has the foot outwardly rotated) with the right leg, you'd draw back slightly as you circle clockwise and begin raising the foot (which would remove the lower leg as a target for linear attacks and position the foot to counter kick the attacking limb very quickly if need be). The leg then continues to rise which occupies the lower meridian line (no geeking or coffee required ;), obstructing anything you were to slow to evade. The Hey Sup (Rising Knee) can be used at this point, depending on range, or the kick proper can be executed. Of course, in application, if you don't need the evasion, obstruction, or knee, etc. you can just lash the Heart Piercing Kick straight out without preamble.

I learned the low leg lock/press as well, though its more apparent in our dummy set (and does tie in nicely to the toe-in/out stuff in the opening and closing horses). With the shoot, are you talking about the heel/ankle pick? I've played around with that , mostly with the initial evasion move, which sets it up nicely for a kick to the head/neck/shoulder.

Body-wrap throw, hmmm. Picture a guillitine but instead of wrapping the neck, you go under the arm and wrap the upper torso, using your hip as a fulcrum, and leveraging them over it. I have a sisuk whose notorious for pulling this off in Chi Sao 8). Very similar to a Bagua throw I learned. Not sure about the back, I'll play with it and get back to you.

I've had the hand/waist/horse harmony battered into me (literally) since the beginning. With this section of CK, its especially focused on the dynamic element (moving while an opponent is moving) which can be trickier since you never know which way they'll thrash to get away.

BTW - Your lineage is ugly and your sifu dresses you funny! And something about army boots!

WRT short power, no worries, whenever you have time.

teazer and Sandman2[Wing Chun] stop trolling.

RR

[AndrewS]

Hey Rene,

Ok- it sounds like we're pretty close on in how we look at kicking, based on the printed page. Leg moves over by other leg while weight shifts- evasion. Knee comes up, control low centerline- from here out any contact is chi gherk. No contact, the way is free, kick.

The shoot- basically, I've seen this, used, and used variants on this myself, for most situations where someone comes (usually because life has been made less pleasant up higher) with their torso below the knee, either 'cos they can't get a body lock, and life at the waist pushed them lower, or a double leg went awry, or a BJJ guy playing 'Jello', or someone hunting for an ankle-lock. With the shoot (even with first contact *way* low, an ankle level shooter with much momentum), I've best seen this used as the shoot goes toward the front leg. Pressure at the front leg, moves you back and out to the side, keeping the initial leg forward. At this point you should be off the main line of the shoot. As they try to readjust, usually going for a single on the front leg, , the back shin comes in to press the shoulder, and lever to scrape the front leg out, back and off-line again. (dummy footwork). This tends to get the shooter to chase the initial target for a moment, normally a good strategy, but the other shin is a fulcrum on the shoulder, which makes it much easier to free the front leg, while spiralling pressure into them more tightly than the spiral made by the readjustment of the shoot (smaller radius on the circle between the feet, than that encompassing the torso). The back leg become the front here- the piece of chum kiu we were talking about. At this point, you usually can bring the shin down on the head/neck/shoulder with your whole bodyweight, and use the shin lock as a head control. You can get this earlier, but handling the substantial momentum that comes with a good shoot is a priority.

Body wrap throw- hang on, are you making a setup for the Pedigree or are you going under one arm and dumping them down and to the side/back by stepping through as the arms go up? Or is this off of (for lack of a better term) the chicken wing that is the tan/pak after the turning lan saos? Two arms or one, and are they square on with head by hip or T-ed off?

This sounds like something I *have* to learn to do, more fun than an old-school piledriver or twist of fate. . .

I wish I'd gotten level of attention to mechanics I receive now in the beginning of my training, or the detail, and am a tad jealous of your good fortune.

Later,

Andrew

[teazer]

teazer and Sandman2[Wing Chun] stop trolling.

Not 'trolling', just running interference!

As to the conversation, at least based on the average Yip Man version of CK, I can see the 'arm wrap' as such. To me it is reminicent of, from a cross wrist single or double grab & pull, crossing one arm under the opposite armpit & pinning the other, transitioning either into an assumed kick/knee with the feet together and/or pull down to either side.
In the situation, the alternative explanations for bringing the feet together seem a little shaky though

[teazer]

the alternative explanations for bringing the feet together seem a little shaky though

Other than, of course the times when you just have to

[anerlich]

Good discussion Rene and AndrewS. I look forward to reading and thinking your posts through in detail when have some quiet time, as they are too complex and detailed for casual reading (which is good).

My Sifu has been encouraging his more senior students to incorporate different facing and stepping into all the forms, including SLT, and the dummy. After a while this can become a base for significant exploration and a much more dynamic method of practice.

I too have experimented with the "kinetic chains" available while practising (the stationary) SLT. IMO the biggest mistake is to assume that the spine and other joints must remain rigid and unmoving during practice, and the practitioner stands or steps like he has a broomstick up his posterior. Body unity means the whole body moves.

[S.Teebas]

IMO the biggest mistake is to assume that the spine and other joints must remain rigid and unmoving during practice

What should the spine be doing?

If the spine is unmoving and stacked one vertebrae on top of the next, and provided it is linked in totality, with itself, and the bones in the arms and legs to the ground (etc..), this is one big piece of the structural puzzle IMHO. i.e. allowing the force to travel through the skeletal structure.

While I agree that the spine should in no way be ridged, I disagree on what I see as an inference that it should bend and bob and weave like a boxer. I cant see how structure is maintained if your are bent over?

[anerlich]

What makes the spine rigid? A misguided belief that a perfectly straight and immovable spine is the best position for power development and efficient movement.

What should it be doing? Articulating and moving so as to provide the best alignment or movement to allow the entire structure to add power, or energy, to whatever you are doing.

[S.Teebas]

Anerlich,
I edited my post and saved it just after u posted this. I thought this was more what im thinking.

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If the spine is unmoving and stacked one vertebrae on top of the next, and provided it is linked in totality, with itself, and the bones in the arms and legs to the ground (etc..), this is one big piece of the structural puzzle IMHO. i.e. allowing the force to travel through the skeletal structure.

While I agree that the spine should in no way be ridged, I disagree on what I see as an inference that it should bend and bob and weave like a boxer. I cant see how structure is maintained if your are bent over?

[anerlich]

I didn't say that.

Subtle and well timed movements of the pelvis and the spine, incorporated with correct breathing. will allow you to hit harder and absorb force more effectively in the basic stance.

[Sam]

Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen's Siu Lin Tao has always been taught with footworks, leg checks, kicks and knees. James Cama Sifu came out with this in his Inside Kung-fu article in 1987. Leung Chi Man Sifu has been teaching this since the 70's here in the states. Siu Baat Gwa positions and kicking postures are in the form. Also included are the Chi Gerk postures.

[burnsypoo]

Doesn't biu chee show us how to be supple and loose in our movement? why can't we slip a punch?


Originally posted by S.Teebas

If the spine is unmoving and stacked one vertebrae on top of the next, and provided it is linked in totality, with itself, and the bones in the arms and legs to the ground (etc..), this is one big piece of the structural puzzle IMHO. i.e. allowing the force to travel through the skeletal structure.

While I agree that the spine should in no way be ridged, I disagree on what I see as an inference that it should bend and bob and weave like a boxer. I cant see how structure is maintained if your are bent over? [/B]

[anerlich]

burnsy,

no reason I can think of we can't slip, bob or weave. ****ed efficient in my book, much harder to hit too. Only thing is it ain't in the SLT form, though I guess you could add some of those attributes in if you wanted.

Actually, might give that a try in the garage tonight ...

[anerlich]

sounds interesting. any web links?

[edward]

there is a reason why you don't move in SLT... modifying or adding for the sake of it, is counter productive

[anerlich]

Originally posted by edward
there is a reason why you don't move in SLT... modifying or adding for the sake of it, is counter productive

Nice statements ... any arguments to back them up?

[AndrewS]

Hey AndrewN,

I'm *way* there with the spine usage being dynamic. This is, IMHO, what Hendrick has been saying (and people have been missing) for rather a while. Faze (Ironmonk) very kindly sent me an article by Victor Guitierrez which touched nicely on this (and wasn't, as I first thought, a mouthing of taiji platitudes).

All this being said, too much play in the spine winds up with force breaking. Some folks in WT wind up chasing this articulation and become 'floppy people' (as a friend of mine calls certain BJJ guys who miss the point on their take on softness). I think a certain amount of stiffness in the torso is often needed to get things in enough of a unit to allow more subtle mechanics to be explored, just as larger (visible) torso motion synchronized with arm motion may be a useful (if mechanically inefficient) route to understanding more compact (and efficient) torso usage which may appear to use minimal if any body to support arm usage, leading to the appearance of that 'stiff' torso.

Later,

Andrew

[anerlich]

AndrewS,

I agree with you, I think. There's a difference between "loose", and being "floppy".

The best image I can come up with is the elasticity of a sapling or bow.

[S.Teebas]

Doesn't biu chee show us how to be supple and loose in our movement? why can't we slip a punch?

Because small people cant generate as much power from this position, as they could if using the skeletal structure in the aforementioned manner.

Also, smaller people will find it very difficult to get back up if taken advantage with a broken structure. IMHO its best just not to go there unless you REALLY have to.... which as we know can and does happen.
My experience against sparing with guys maybe twice my size, is to not bend the spine. Cause if they get on top of you its your disadvantage...big time.

[anerlich]

I can agree with that, though I'd rather slip a punch if the alternative is to keep correct structure but wear it full on in the face.

Because small people cant generate as much power from this position

Watch the upcoming Kostya Tszyu fight, you might reconsider.

[teazer]

I'm *way* there with the spine usage being dynamic....
All this being said, too much play in the spine winds up with force breaking....
think a certain amount of stiffness in the torso is often needed to get things in enough of a unit to allow more subtle mechanics to be explored, just as larger (visible) torso motion synchronized with arm motion may be a useful (if mechanically inefficient) route to understanding more compact (and efficient) torso usage which may appear to use minimal if any body to support arm usage, leading to the appearance of that 'stiff' torso.


Indeed. eg Whipping power is kinda tough to do if there's a rigid section half way through the whip! First people need to get power all the way through their structure efficiently. Too loose & you lose the wave. After that, they need to make sure all their structure can generate it as well.

[burnsypoo]

Good thing they train Biu Chee then.


Originally posted by S.Teebas

Also, smaller people will find it very difficult to get back up if taken advantage with a broken structure.

[reneritchie]

AndrewS - I have a work crunch coming but will get back to you. The wrap throw is not pedigree like, more like the dreaded abdominal stretch but instead of stretching, you lever them over your hip/thigh backwards to the ground (maybe like a back-breaker sans breaking and with a sweep instead of vertical drop.) Eiether way, no shooting star press involved.

WRT the spine, IMHO your spine is dynamically straight in that there are many micro-movements* that coordinate with the hands (and not just in the spine but in the core body including legs, obliques, etc.) If you're doing SLT, you should feel it in different parts of your body as your progress in learning and training it (maybe your thighs in the beginning, later maybe your obliques or lats, etc.). If not, its "old dead tree" country.

(* there are some bigger movements as well involved in the whole sink/swallow and reverse process, IMHO, as well)

RR

[AndrewS]

Hey Rene,

Think I get what you're saying about the wrap throw. A sidewalk slam where you stay standing? I'd love to get more detail on this throw, but I'll respect your work crunch and not beg for any more details. One question, though- what's the typical entry?

A cool spine thing- while I like Andrew N (I forget, do you go by Andy?)'s 'sapling' visual, something which works for me is trying to always maintain a sense of an internal vertical- a 'pole' of balance running from crown to mid foot, about which deviations may occur, but which always sums up to that 'pole'- which may change in height, but is always somehow counter balanced around itself. The 'narrower' I make this little visual, the more easily I can flow around force, when doing stuff like stepping aggressively into palms and pushes with my eyes closed (a drill I play with every so often).

By the same token, I don't have the Biu Tze yet, so I may yet again refine my view of my mechanics.

FWIW,

Andrew

[red5angel]

Holy bejeeesus Anerlich, do you know anything about wingchun structure?! Bobbing and weaving in SLT?! While spine doesnt have to be rigid it should be straight, THATS efficient, how the heck do you figure bobbing and weaving is efficient?! Why dont you hop around a little on the tips of your toes and sort of wave your arms aorund in front of you!!!
You have got to tell me how your class is learning structure etc...I am interested to see if these are your own theories or those of someone else!

Ther doesnt have to be any motion in SLT there is plenty of structure and footwork going on already!

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by red5angel
Holy bejeeesus Anerlich, do you know anything about wingchun structure?! Bobbing and weaving in SLT?! While spine doesnt have to be rigid it should be straight, THATS efficient, how the heck do you figure bobbing and weaving is efficient?!

so much class in your response. Ever asked some of the people in your family who have actually trained *beyond SLT* whether the spine is always perfectly straight? I'm curious to see what they say.

-BP-

[taltos]

Of course SNT will have footwork... without the feet the hands really aren't too terribly effective, and we need motion to put our whole body behind our hands.

The difference is whether or not you're playing the FORM (which, among other things, trains hand structure, posture, relaxation, release of energy, etc.), or you are playing the APPLICATION (which is the direct expression of SNT in combat and should have corresponding energetics, sensitivity, and footwork/body unity).

The form trains the motions, and shows you how it looks (and feels) in a perfect world. The application trains direct expression, and shows you how it looks (and feels) when you have a secondary object who is not cooperating with your idea of a perfect world.

As long as you know WHAT you're training, WHY you're training it, and WHEN and WHERE it's appropriate, there's no reason you can play different drills for different principles/applications. Just be mindful.

-Levi

[reneritchie]

Andrew - LOL! Yeah, I guess like a sidewalk slam. I enter a bunch of ways. The simplest, but not most tactically sound, is just to outwards lap as you toe-out, then bring the other leg in close while you bring your other arm up under their armpit, wrap, and throw. That would be the MA mag frame by frame version.

r5a - 2.4

RR

[AndrewS]

Rene,

*sweet*!!!

Lop mirror side and go inside (hence not tactically sound?) or cross lop?

The first makes more sense. I see experimental junior abuse in the offing. . .

BTW- is it possible to create some form of kill-file for one's individual account on these boards? Every time Red posts, I realize that for a $300 plane ticket, and a few grand in legal fees I can gratify some of my baser urges.

Later,

Andrew

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Rene,
BTW- is it possible to create some form of kill-file for one's individual account on these boards? Every time Red posts, I realize that for a $300 plane ticket, and a few grand in legal fees I can gratify some of my baser urges.


Andrew,
Absolutely. If you click on "user control panel" at the top of the screen, you can go into the "ignore list" and add usernames you wish to be auto filtered out when you browse the forums. And "Wallah!" ;) you wont' see any posts made by those users anymore.

[reneritchie]

Hi Andrew,

Not tactically sound in that outward lap'ing a skilled opponent especially while you're more mobile than s/he (if s/he's standing and you're stepping, for example) is a good way to get airborn (or just crossed and pummeled), and the cold entry is also ripe for all kinds of counters (as I said, its the MA Mag frame by frame version, and you can always counter the heck out of those). More tactically sound involves swallowing the force of an overextended attack with the bridge while the body moves in an occupies space (more hand/body stuff), then some good yiu (waist) ging for a nasty throw.

WRT 'ignore', sure you can kill file the trolls, but I've found it more fun as of late simply to rate their (often poor) trolling attempts, Swedish judge brutal like. (BTW- I can appreciate the wry wit and subtle humor of a truly skilled troll, but when they don't even try... well, laziness in any endeavor shouldn't be tolerated ;)

RR

[Sam]

www.buddhapalm.com http://hometown.aol.com/jcama108/myhomepage/index.html
Those two are James Cama Sifu's web pages he is currently working on a new site and article which should be in Inside Kung-fu in a few months

[AndrewS]

Hey Rene,

I *think* I've learned a similar mechanic for stepping behind a go-behind attempt and executing a throw, but I suspect we'll have to compare notes on this in person some day.

Sandman,

many thanks. I don't need either the criminal record or the frequent flier miles.

Later,

Andrew

[anerlich]

Holy bejeeesus Anerlich, do you know anything about wingchun structure?!

A great deal more than you, apparently.

.You have got to tell me how your class is learning structure etc

No I don't.

AndrewS, call me whatever you like.

[YungChun]

Hmmm bobbing and weaving in Wing Chun... Perhaps we should add this into the Jong set. It would certainly be amusing to watch in any case.

Many of Bui Jee's odd movements are there to address recovery issues in structure - which are hopefully breif and accidental. You could call Biu Jee the 'What to do when you f***k up set.'

Wing Chun uses turning and moves the horse where evasion/redirection is needed - in this way one may maintain structure in order to offer a simultaneous counter.

If anyone wants to try adding in bobbing and weaving why not try it while Chi-Saoing - am sure your si-hings will have a blast (pardon the pun.)

[anerlich]

Chi sao is a sensitivity drill to develop CONTACT reflexes, reading and controlling the opponent through contact.

Body mobility and evasion are for slipping attacks and AVOIDING contact. A simultaneous counter can also be employed very successfully this way. The dummy is of limited value for practising these. Mitt drills and live partners are much better.

You don't like it, your choice. I'm very confident that my Sifu, fellow students and I can demonstrate that such attributes can be, and are, effectively integrated into our system.

I don't have that many si-hings that still train regularly, or that train or teach in the same state as me, but we certainly do have a blast (pun intended or no) when we get together, whatever the modality of practice.:cool:

www.combatcentres.com

[Sam]

Siu Baat Gwa

The Little Octagon - eight (8) directional chi palm change and invisibility set contains angling, circling, spinning, stealth and walking inner & outer circle. Can be done on the moi fa stake poles. This is an evasive invisibility set which puts one in an advantageous position for an immediate counter strike.
Siu Baat Gwa also contains sinking, angling, torking, hollowing, and rising evasive body and footworks which is similar to bobbing and weaving only the spine posture never changes.
http://hometown.aol.com/jcama108/myhomepage/index.html

[YungChun]

Originally posted by anerlich
Body mobility and evasion are for slipping attacks and AVOIDING contact. A simultaneous counter can also be employed very successfully this way.


Why would a Wing Chun man want to avoid contact? Is it Wing Chun at that point? You say integrate - to me that reads add. Why would you need to add things to Wing Chun that fundamentally conflict with the basics of the system?

With very few exceptions if you are avoiding contact you will not have a simultaneous counter available in the same beat - you will need an extra move to recover from the move that you used to avoid the opponent in the first place - or are you slipping and using a cross? (WB) Wing Chun structure is not compatible with bobbing and weaving - this is Western Boxing - a different art. Yes you can add it in but this begs the question - why do you need to add it in? You could add in round-house kicks - wheel kicks and jabs, ridgehands, hooks - but at some point it just ain't Wing Chun anymore. Wing Chun has tools to handle these issues that are more efficient, safer and are congruent with the edicts of the system - what seems to be the problem with these elements? It is a rare case indeed in martial art that more is better - especially in Wing Chun.

[anerlich]

Why would a Wing Chun man want to avoid contact?

A couple reasons OTTOMH:

To keep both hands free for strikes.

To avoid giving the opponent tactile feedback of what you are doing, and keep him neuromuscularly blind.
You say integrate - to me that reads add
Semantics and opinion.
Why would you need to add things to Wing Chun that fundamentally conflict with the basics of the system?
Whether or not such tactics present a "fundamental conflict" is also a matter of opinion.
you will need an extra move to recover from the move that you used to avoid the opponent in the first place
Not necessarily. You can hit on the slip, as you go on to say. Simultaneous attack and defense, not opposing the opponent's force directly ... kind of like WC. :eek:
Wing Chun structure is not compatible with bobbing and weaving
IYHO, perhaps.
You could add in round-house kicks - wheel kicks and jabs, ridgehands, hooks
ulp.. Guilty, your honour, except for the ridgehands.
at some point it just ain't Wing Chun anymore
but where that point is IMHO and IYHO.
efficient, safer
This I like - opinions vary how best to do it
and are congruent with the edicts of the system
Edicts ... whose edicts? The WC Political Correctness police? This I can live without.
what seems to be the problem with these elements
Who has a problem? If I have a problem, why are you the guy on the soapbox shouting HERESY!
It is a rare case indeed in martial art that more is better - especially in Wing Chun.
I guess this would be a bad time to bring up my concurrent training in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu? :confused:

www.combatcentres.com

[YungChun]

Hey you can train/fight however you want - it's your privilege.

I would respectfully ask anyone who has radically changed the system to do us 'traditional' Wing Chun types a favor: When someone watching you dancing around bobbing, weaving, throwing jabs, spinning back-fists, wheel-kicks, etc - asks you what system/style you do please don't say Wing Chun, because you are grossly misrepresenting the art - no offense intended. Call it whatever you want but don’t call it what it isn’t.

If everyone radically changed their Wing Chun in a myriad of different ways but still all called their systems Wing Chun then the name Wing Chun must fall to dust. In this case the name Wing Chun looses all its meaning and heritage – which is something many of us would rather not see happen, to any art.

When Bruce changed his Wing Chun he immediately stopped using the name Wing Chun because he had deviated too far from the original system to accurately represent what the original system is.

If it doesn't walk like a duck and doesn't sound like a duck then it ain't no duck.

[Sam]

Fut Sao circling is done with contact. Evasive footworks and body movements are needed especially against multiple attackers. You can't make contact with all your opponents. Plus initial contact or interception is also an option. If an opponents bridge is to strong then footworks and evasive body movements adjust your counter measures. These concepts are all from Wing Chun. You don't have to add boxing or techniques from other styles.

[taltos]

The following is all, of course, IMHO.

Before you have a bridge, both of you are blind. You only have your eyes to guide you. Upon contact, you have a bridge - and with it (if you have trained well) comes a wealth of information about your opponent.

If you train a system that stresses the absolute importance of sensitivity, and holds Chi Sao as one of it's core training tools, then there certainly must be something to maintaining stick.

Of course, there are situations where you would break stick. Such as when your opponents hand goes to far off center, and you run, etc. etc. etc., but if he is in your space, you stick to that space (and, by necessity, him) to protect yourself.

-Levi

[anerlich]

Hey you can train/fight however you want

I know.

I would respectfully ask anyone who has radically changed the system

I thought you said I was adding to it.

do us 'traditional' Wing Chun types a favor

Actually, I think I'm the one working closest to William Cheung's *Traditional* Wing Chun (TM). :D

because you are grossly misrepresenting the art

I've never misrepresented what I do, nor has my Sifu.

no offense intended

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though I'm not totally convinced.

Call it whatever you want but don’t call it what it isn’t.

I'll respectifully leave that decision to my Sifu. He's done quite a lot to raise the profile of Wing Chun in this country, at least, and has IMO earned the right to use that name more than many.

Jeez, all I did was say on a public forum that I like playing around with boxing movements, tactics, and attributes, putting on gloves and duking it out with a few mates, and playing Devil's advocate, and now I'm responsible for the diminishment of Wing Chun traditions world wide. I suppose I should be flattered. Just as well people like you and red5angel are standing shoulder to shoulder holding that line, stopping the eclectic vermin from pouring through. WALLAH!

Some people need to lighten up.

Seriously, while my Sifu is somewhat of an innovator, even "radical", he is EXTREMELY serious about upholding the traditions of Wing Chun, the forms, structure, chi sao, principles, dummy, weapons, etc. While we practice other things, some like BJJ extremely hard and seriously, WC is the jewel at the core of our system. We respect and uphold our roots and I am confident we can match any WC school in the world on that score.

www.combatcentres.com