get rid of ur own force?

[IRONMONK]

The first rule of force in Wing tsun is to get rid of ur own force-what does this statement mean?

I know that say im in man sao -wu sao position and someone pak sao punches me i find that when i tense up and get hit(and have no chance of defending) but when i relax down and just allow my partner to pak sao punch without giving resistance back i can defend it.Any tips on how to improve relaxation?

But where is the forward pressure if u get rid of ur own force?

[reneritchie]

Basically, IMHO, what's said is to become relaxed (sung) and soft (yao). You need your own force, in fact you cultivate it and refine it (ging), but you need to learn to use it intelligently (in the direction of the wind) and adaptively (change it according to feeling).

So, if you're in Wu/Man and someone uses Pak Da, if you're very high level, you can just let the force bounce back into them and go in along with it. If not, you can change your bridge to disolve it and then go into their core.

To develop relaxation and softness, I'd recommend Siu Lien/Nim Tao, for the strategy in applying it, Chi Sao.

RR

[AndrewS]

Hey Faze,

Rene's dead on in this one, and you're asking important questions.

The forward pressure is there- but, as I alluded to in the 'anti-forward pressure' thread, the more pressure you use to go forward, the more easily *you* can be affected. Basically, you try to do more and more with less and less, always heading forward. Oh yes- the more arm and delt you use, the harder it is to be soft in the right places.

Chi sao is a great place to learn about the right sort of softness, as it's hard to lie to yourself in chi sao with a partner who knows how to check you. Once you know 'right', then SNT is a good place to train.

Take a lot of shocks, get your partners to drop their hands one or the other in all phazes of motion, push forward, pull, push, in, out, down- all at a speed and force which you can comfortably feel, and know when you've lost your forward, pushed against, been too soft and lost the ability to defend (nothing there, and collapsing is *wrong*, you should be able to hold a lot of force while softly absorbing and changing but that's a probably a bit down the road for you).

Take it easy,

Andrew

[S.Teebas]

Basically, you try to do more and more with less and less

more and more of what?

Less and less of what?

And why is the 'more' better to use and why does it affect the opponent better than the 'less' ...and in what way?

[AndrewS]

'More and more. . .'

Feel and control the other person using less and less pressure, allowing you to find an advantageous line to use heavy pressure (i.e. hit) without giving a line into your own structure which would allow them to manipulate or feel you.

So 'more' is more control, earlier and greater feeling using less effort, less pressure, and exposing yourself to less risk.

Some thoughts on the matter,

Andrew

[S.Teebas]

Some good ideas from AndrewS.

The first rule of force in Wing tsun is to get rid of ur own force-what does this statement mean?

Im not a WT guy, but i think it means to forget using the force as you know it today. ie get ready for a new idea on generating force the wing chun way!

[AndrewS]

Hey S. Teebas,

My take on this little saying-

'First get rid of your own force, then get rid of your opponent's force, then add back in your own force judiciously'- one way I've heard it-

is that it describes both stages in your training, and a strategy for fighting.

It presupposes *having* force to begin with- being in decent shape with a body which can support the positions of Wing Chun/ WT.

Then you learn to 'relax' and use the mechanics of Wing Chun/ WT, pretty much what you said.

Beyond that- strategically, I think it means to not present structure (force) which can be disrupted on initial contact, at first- being 'soft'.

Later,

Andrew

[YungChun]

Originally posted by IRONMONK
But where is the forward pressure if u get rid of ur own force?

In your opponent.

[reneritchie]

I think what AndrewS is getting at is Si Boon Pui Gong (maximun results through minimum effort), which is at the core of WCK (and also other arts like Judo).

RR

[IRONMONK]

Thanx guys for the replies-i think this is one of these things that will take a long time to get so i am going to have to practice,practise practise...
What i am doing in dan chi my partner drops/moves his hand away to check if i have spring and not being active at the same time making sure that im a relaxed.Also doing the same thing in poon sau and i have been caught out many times!!!
I have also heard that the stance helps with forward pressure but im not to sure about this.
Anyway here is a reply i got from an instructor when i asked him the same qstn (by email):



" the term "forward energy" is easily misunderstood. Long practice
enables one to maintain a contain forward springy energy. Fatigue is the
first hurdle. The forward energy is really quite subtle and NOT like
"pushing." The pressure is, at the same moment, passive and aggressive.
This is why the proper term is "clinging arms." One must find a neutral
pressure so that one's partner's force exactly equals your force so that the
two sides are equal and neither overpowers the other for the purposes of
training in poon sau. It is a cooperative exercise. Once this neutral
energy is achieved, a partner can more easily detect differences in
pressure, direction, tension, balance and the intentions of the opponent
because anything different than neutral force can be easily felt. This is
the beginning of a very useful skill, to say the least. Chi sau gives rise
to the ability to the real ability to borrow the force of the opponent.
To learn to borrow an opponent's force, one must first give up your own
force, then learn to get rid of your opponent's force by evading, deflecting
or dissolving his force. Then and only then can one learn to borrow an
opponent's force.
You can always tell when you are training with someone of high skill
level or poor skill in chi sau. The poorly skilled partner will tire you
out more quickly because of downward, sideward or upward-lifting pressure
against one's arm. One sign of higher skill is the ability to put totally
neutral force forward only, not to the side, up or down.
In theory, there are three levels of pressure in chi sau: Light
pressure to develop sensitivity, "Normal" for regular general purpose
practice and Heavy pressure to develop power and endurance in the shoulders
and arm and to prepare a student for the powerful arms of another.
The learned skill of chi sau is like the ability to play an instrument
or wield a billiard cue. It takes many hours of practice over a period of
years. Forward spring is not a "reflex" but a "mechanical reaction" done
without pre-thought. A beginner in chi sau will not have this ability.
By-the-way, your triceps extend the arm forward and the biceps pull it back
and bend the arm at the elbow, so your instructors are correct when they say
that your triceps exert the forward pressure together with subtle force in
the shoulder. No, you do not use the shoulder to push forward. Keep the
shoulders square. "


regards,

faze.

[YungChun]

Good article.

It comes down to learning how to take your energy and fine tune it into a laser beam of energy aimed directly at the Centerline. The beginner's energy is as the light of a dim candle, with light going everywhere - he does not know how to focus it into a bright beam into the Centerline. This is the secret of Wing Chun – and what makes Wing Chun, ‘different.’

As you get more advanced you will learn how to focus all the energy in your body into a tightly focused beam of energy. Key to getting this to happen is proper understanding of your Wing Chun structure - horse - tools and how to use them. Play your forms more and it will pay off in your Chi-Sao. Understand where the energy needs to go and how much you need to use and how.

The Sifu spoke of the energy coming from the triceps and also of the energy being neutral. These are the keys. This innate forwardness begins at the elbow (triceps) and is supported by the horse and structure of the tool. The neutral nature of the energy is the direction this energy takes - the beam - forward. The contact point you use in Chi-Sao, starting at the wrist normally, is where the energy emanates from. Aim the energy well forming a straight line from your elbow to the wrist and into your partner's Centerline, nowhere else and you have a beginning. If/when your partners energy is impure and takes you off the line you can now use his error to create your technique – a result of his impure energy.

[S.Teebas]

IRONMONKs article says:

Heavy pressure to develop power and endurance in the shoulders and arm and to prepare a student for the powerful arms of another.


Why does this guy talk so much about arms? What about the body mass?



YungChun Says:
It comes down to learning how to take your energy and fine tune it into a laser beam of energy aimed directly at the Centerline. The beginner's energy is as the light of a dim candle, with light going everywhere - he does not know how to focus it into a bright beam into the Centerline. This is the secret of Wing Chun – and what makes Wing Chun, ‘different.’

I heard that EXACT analogy by Mark Kerr on a Pride tape, is it really so unique or just the specifics on HOW its used??

[YungChun]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
I heard that EXACT analogy by Mark Kerr on a Pride tape, is it really so unique or just the specifics on HOW its used??

Can you post a link? Wing Chun focuses on undeviating Centerline directed energy and Centerline occupation - is this really what was discussed?

I have not seen other systems focusing on these aspects and certainly not to the single-mindedness of WC which is based on these elements.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


Why does this guy talk so much about arms? What about the body mass?


Possibly because this is where the forward 'intent' is going on that he discusses. The forward energy is first applied from the arms - if the door is closed. If a 'door' opens the whole body will move as a unit with the arms.

[S.Teebas]

The forward energy is first applied from the arms

Can this same forward energy be applied inside the body? - would this be better because of its unifying characteristic?

Or are you saying it’s just a different type of energy used inside the body and in the arms?

[YungChun]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


Can this same forward energy be applied inside the body?



It is - when a door opens. Chung-Chi, or heavy sticking with the whole body moving together happens, or is made, when the 'door opens' , meaning a defect exists in the partner's structure and can be used against him.

When the ‘door is closed’ the body maintains distance and facing, supports the arms, and their forward spring energy. The arms are then free to move independently of the body under 'closed door' conditions - this allows maximum flexibility for the arms to use any door that may open - instantly.

HTH