shadowless kick

[Wingman]

I often hear that wing chun kicks are "shadowless kicks". What is meant by a "shadowless kick"? What makes wing chun kicks "shadowless"?

[Nat from UK]

I think it refers to the fact that most lineages don't chamber the kick by lifting the knee first, this makes them difficult to see as they are not telegraphed in the same way as other styles.

Where the kicks are semi chambered are delivered in a much shorter range than a normal "kicking range" often whilst in punching range which also makes them hard to see.

As the first thing you know about the kick is the kick landing they were referred to as "shadowless" ie could not see them coming.

The above is a guess as I havn't heard of the term "shadowless" other than in the movies. :)

I could be way of the mark as there is a lot of Wing Chun I have yet to experience.

Nat from UK

[Frank Exchange]

Yep, thats where I reckon it comes from, but I have nothing to back it up with apart from my own opinion.

In our lineage, there is no chambering at all, the foot goes directly from the floor to the target in a straight line.

The only time I have heard about the shadowless kick is regarding Jet Li playing Wong Fei Hung, with his "No shadow kick from Fatshan!"

I love it in those old KF flicks when the protagonist announces his move before he does it.

Someone on this forum had a great sig a while back:

"Insufferable fool! No shadow kick! Pow!" :) That made me laugh. A lot.

[gnugear]

Certain lineages also weight the back leg 100% which means there is no shifting of the body when kicking with the front leg. I suppose that could be shodowless, although I've never heard the term before.

[joy chaudhuri]

Nah. Us 50 50 folks also use therm shadowless and we kick with the front legg just as fast...at least.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by joy chaudhuri
Nah. Us 50 50 folks also use therm shadowless and we kick with the front legg just as fast...at least.

Im sure you can kick fast, but how can a person with weight on his foot kick as fast as a person with no/less weight on the foot?
What i mean is, in order for you to kick useing your front foot, you have to get the weight off of it and then lift it up. But a peson with little to no weight on his leg just needs to lift it up. Less steps involved. so generally speaking, wouldn't he be quicker?

[Atleastimnotyou]

crimsonking, i did what you said. i distributed my weight 50/50 onto each leg. When i tryed to kick with my front foot, i couldn't find a way to do this without first placing my weight onto my rear leg then kicking with my front leg. So i guess i did run into that one problem you talked about. So my question is: why have the weight 50/50? it seems to me that having the weight 100/0 (all weight on rear) cuts that problem out.

[anerlich]

100/0 allows you to get your unweighted leg into action *slightly* quicker. *Maybe* quick enough to make a difference.

OTOH, it will take longer to shift weight than it will from 50/50 if you want to kick with the other leg. It's also more obvious to the opponent which leg a kick is coming from if all your weight is on the other which will improve the speed of his response, *perhaps* quick enough to nullify the speed advantage gained from the 100/0 weighting.

AS several zillion other usenet and internet forum posts, including one at length with your stylistic "little brother" red5angel of not so long ago, both approaches have their advantages and drawbacks. I haven't seen a thread yet where someone with a background in one approach was converted to the other as a result of the discussion. I think it highly doubtful that this thread will break the mould.

[yuanfen]

crimsonking sez:More often than not people who have only been trained in one approach simply dont see how the other approach is even physically possible, people blindly repeat whats been engrained into them by their school without thinking for themselves.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True. Listening is an art in itself.

[Atleastimnotyou]

I did what you said and i got the results you said i would get. and i know you said you weren't advocating this way of kicking, but to me, it seems as if there are no benefits to 50/50. It seems to me that this way just creates more complications. so... for those of you that use the 50/50 aproach, why do you?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
I did what you said and i got the results you said i would get. and i know you said you weren't advocating this way of kicking, but to me, it seems as if there are no benefits to 50/50. It seems to me that this way just creates more complications. so... for those of you that use the 50/50 aproach, why do you?
Hi Corey,

Can you kick when standing in Yi Gi Keem Yeung Ma? That's 50/50. You can do this in several ways,, shifting your weight or not. When you stand in 0/100 with one foot forward, you are not neutral and your vulnerability to kicking attacks is greatly increased. You shouldn't find it hard to kick from 50/50 if you've been training your sets.

Regards,

[Atleastimnotyou]

We kick 100/0 in our sets, so training them would not help with 50/50. Doesn't the 50/50 stance leave your front leg vulnerable to sweeping or getting kick? Well i know you could lift your leg of move it, but doing so would involve taking the weight off of it first. Also, how are are you vulnerable in 100/0?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
We kick 100/0 in our sets, so training them would not help with 50/50. Doesn't the 50/50 stance leave your front leg vulnerable to sweeping or getting kick? Well i know you could lift your leg of move it, but doing so would involve taking the weight off of it first. Also, how are are you vulnerable in 100/0?
Hi Corey,

If you can kick while in the 50/50 YGKYM, you should be able to kick just as well in the 50/50 forward stance that the others seem to be used to. Timing is more important than the initial weighting. As for the sets, using 0/100, unless one considers the crescent kick in Chum Kiu, you are correct, but the practice of the sets, particularly Sil Nim Tao, build up your kicking ability, and in application, at least in chi sao, you are learning to kick from the YGKYM. Remember, in kicking, if we can use our opponents two legs, we often kick from a three legged stance. :)

In the 100/0, you have a front side and a rear side. As you step into that position, kickers, say Muay Thai practitioners, will aim the attack at your back side and if they're good, they'll succeed. By remaining in, and fighting from YGKYM and not advancing in a stance until you've made contact, you give your attacker only one side (your front) to attack, which is what we train to receive. As I understand what Ken teaches, we walk into our opponent's range; we don't advance into it in 0/100. The YGKYM keeps us able to make quick adjustments as dictated by our opponents' movements and energy.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Atleastimnotyou
Doesn't the 50/50 stance leave your front leg vulnerable to sweeping or getting kick?

((Not if you know what you are doing. Any position can be dangerous if you dont know what you are doing))Yuanfen


Well i know you could lift your leg of move it, but doing so would involve taking the weight off of it first,

((Not if you know what you are doing. Can be all one motion-
you just kick)) Yuanfen

[reneritchie]

Not to interupt the weighty discussion with an attempted answer, but... 8P

If memory serves (and it increasingly does not of late) in folk-lore, the Mo Yieng Gerk (No Shadow Kick) was particularly famous as (one of?) the "peerless" or "special" techniques of Hung Ga master Wong Fei Hung -- a kick so fast it left no shadow behind.

In common usage, Mo Yieng refered to a kick that, by means of its speed or its position or some other factor could not be seen, and thus not be defended by the opponent.

It might make more sense when Yieng is interpreted as "impression", and also when viewed alongside the famous saying: Yo Ying Da Ying, Mo Ying Da Yieng (Have Form Strike Form, No Form Strike Shadow).

RR

[yylee]

Hi Rene

Did you get my email from yesterday? :D

^_^

David

[rogue]

To the 50/50 kickers:

Do you shift your weight onto the backleg after starting the kick or do you use the forward falling momentum to power the kick through the target?

[Geezer]

Rene wrote
If memory serves (and it increasingly does not of late) in folk-lore, the Mo Yieng Gerk (No Shadow Kick) was particularly famous as (one of?) the "peerless" or "special" techniques of Hung Ga master Wong Fei Hung -- a kick so fast it left no shadow behind.

From my conversations with Hung Ga practioners on a Hung Ga forum,this kick was normally only taught to inside students.
They advised me that this was the case so I didn't press for any more info on the subject.
So from what I gathered this is if you like a fairly secret technique,only taught to the inside senior students.:)

[Geezer]

I managed to find the conversation on NSK,

My question
I'm actually curious about the no shadow kick,was this something that really existed and was practised, or is it something that films have twisted around and portrayed as a super human feat.?

Answer
As far as where did WFH learned the NSK. The story was that WFH used Tik Sin and his tiger claws techniques in exchange for the NSK from a Sifu by the name of Sun Fai Tong.
Answer
Traditionally the NSK is not a publicly discussed topic. It is reserve for the "dik Chung" disciples and not to be shown and discuss in public even among training brothers that are not "Dik Chung". Therefore I will continue to honor this tradition.
My reply

Seeing as I'm not a "Dik Chung" Disciple,I will not ask any more questions on the subject,but what you did say was very informative.
:)

[reneritchie]

Back in those days a "secret technique" could still be the difference between winning or losing. People were secret to the point of paranoia and if you could surprise an opponent, all the better. Now, with video, internet, etc. there are less secrets/surprises and actual skill is usually the only "edge" that can be relied on.

To put it in a modern context, in some ways its like NHB/MMA. In the first UFCs, nobody new ground fighting, so it took them by surprise and some fighters gave up the instant they hit the ground. Now ground fighting has been spread far and wide and people aren't surprised anymore, and in fact train specifically to defeat it (Liddel, Cro Cop, etc.) and it comes down to skill (who trains smarter/harder).

RR

[anerlich]

Also, how are are you vulnerable in 100/0?

Sweep or kick to the knee of the supporting leg. Don't tell me it can't be done, because in that case I've done the impossible on a number of occasions.

To the 50/50 kickers:

Do you shift your weight onto the backleg after starting the kick or do you use the forward falling momentum to power the kick through the target?

In my Sifu's academy, we wish to be well balanced on the supporting leg to allow the possibility of multiple kicks with the same leg, or to move back or to the side as well as forward after the kick, etc. Using the falling momentum, per the "falling step" in boxing, kind of limits your follow up options in that regard. With punches, we use the falling step, though not all competent WC practioners do, yuanfen for example disagrees with this approach and I respect his opinion.

My Sifu had a long and successful career in the ring, including several kick KO's using a fake front kick to the body, popup roundhouse to the head with the same leg. The approach has been field tested.

[TwoManSaw]

At my club, we also use a 50/50 weighting for our footwork. I have found that the training methods that we use, to develop the 50/50 weight distribution. Allow you to become very aware of exactly where your weight lies and you become adept at shifting your centre of gravity between the lead and rear leg. A by product of this awareness, I have found makes me quite sensitve to pressure and force on either leg. With reference to the lead leg being swept, It is my experience that the 50/50 weight allows me very quickly to shift my c.o.g and launch a kick.(Buts that not to say i havent been swept or seen my brothers swept either, my sifu and sihings tend to get great enjoyment out of it sometimes).

Similar to anerlich's sifu, my sifu teaches a fake rear leg stomp kick which has a forward linear approach directed at the knee, which he then pops up into a high round kick, its a beauty to watch and if your reflexs deceive you it catches you nicely in the head.:)

[TjD]

Originally posted by anerlich

Using the falling momentum, per the "falling step" in boxing, kind of limits your follow up options in that regard. With punches, we use the falling step, though not all competent WC practioners do, yuanfen for example disagrees with this approach and I respect his opinion.


while i use the "falling step" for hand strikes, i rarely use it for kicks (unless my ass is on the line, and i really need to fall into it :D ), however i do practice it in the pole form (also the po pi section, and the 2nd one afterwards in the wooden dummy we do uses a similar mechanic - perhaps more things do as well).

while i generally feel more comfortable in a 100/0 stance, i think the system teaches 100/0 and 50/50 mechanics.. and as of late i think both are just as useful, depending on where/how your standing.

if it feels like wing chun, use it :)

[black and blue]

My Sifu teaches 30/70 weight distribution. More weight on the back leg than the front.

As far as I can tell, positioning, turning and stepping when dealing with an attack means you shift weight accordingly (we don't just stand there in our 30/70 stance :D).

50/50 is clearly the more 'natural stance' - though that said, have you ever noticed how women seem to stand 0/100 with one of their feet bent at an odd angle? :confused:

The only problem 'I' find with 50/50 is that I tend to rise up and not sink enough. 30/70 keeps me lower and makes me feel (dare I say it if Red5Angel is about??)... more rooted. Though like I said, my moving to use angles tends to mean weight distribution changes from step to step.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by anerlich
My Sifu had a long and successful career in the ring, including several kick KO's using a fake front kick to the body, popup roundhouse to the head with the same leg.
Hi Anerlich,

Was your sifu doing Wing Chun and kicking to the head, or was kicking above the waist a requirement of the type of tournament in which he was entered?

I guess I'm also asking what kind of ring competition was it?

Regards,

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Not to interupt the weighty discussion with an attempted answer, but... 8P

If memory serves (and it increasingly does not of late) in folk-lore, the Mo Yieng Gerk (No Shadow Kick) was particularly famous as (one of?) the "peerless" or "special" techniques of Hung Ga master Wong Fei Hung -- a kick so fast it left no shadow behind.

In common usage, Mo Yieng refered to a kick that, by means of its speed or its position or some other factor could not be seen, and thus not be defended by the opponent.

RR

Wow. A kick so fast it leaves no shadow. it must be really fast then. faster in fact, then the speed of light...........

[Wingman]

In common usage, Mo Yieng refered to a kick that, by means of its speed or its position or some other factor could not be seen, and thus not be defended by the opponent.-- reneritchie

Wow. A kick so fast it leaves no shadow. it must be really fast then. faster in fact, then the speed of light...........-- UltimateFighter

IMO, speed alone does not make a kick "shadowless". As mentioned above by reneritchie, position and other factors besides speed must come into play. What are these other factors? The element of surprise is one factor that comes to mind.

Let's have an example:
"A" is in a forward stance and much of his weight is on his hind leg. "B" thinks that "A" cannot kick with his hind leg without shifting his weight to the other leg. "B" attacks "A"; and "A" counters with an appropriate hand technique. As "A" executes the counter, he shifts his weight to the other leg and kicks with his hind leg. This might catch "B" completely by surprise because "B" is preoccupied with his hands and may not notice "A's" shifting of the weight to the other leg. The shifting of the weight also alters "A's" position in relation to "B".

Speed, position, and the element of surprise are just some of the factors that makes a "shadowless kick". Can you think of any other factors?

[burnsypoo]

To me a "shadowless kick" is about not telegraphing it. Whether by visual cues given from the body, or from feeling major changes in the person's balance (etc..) if you're in contact.

[Atleastimnotyou]

a couple of you have it right, but some of you are way out in space. If one just thinks about it, a shadowless kick is one where the reciever didn't see it coming. not cuz it was faster than light, but just because they were to busy getting hit(or some other factor). Shadowless kick? Stop taking everything so literally.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by TwoManSaw
Similar to anerlich's sifu, my sifu teaches a fake rear leg stomp kick which has a forward linear approach directed at the knee, which he then pops up into a high round kick, its a beauty to watch and if your reflexs deceive you it catches you nicely in the head.:)
Hi TMS,

Is this high round kick part of your practice of Wing Chun or are you learning more than one style? On the face, it seems to violate Wing Chun principles, although I know from experience, it can be very effective in a karate context.

Regards,

[Mithrandir]

Shadowless Kick=stillness in motion. No visual clues that it is coming...body does not tense or change height. Facial muscles don't clench, arm muscles don't clench and the torso remains still. Generally it would be a low-line kick to the lower legs. If the groin is the target one would do well to "ride the body line". It sounds like a fancy term used to describe simple body mechanics to me.


Just some thoughts,

[Wingman]

I was watching RandyWilliams' dummy video; and he applied the shadowless kick on the dummy. His definition of the shadowless kick is, "doing multiple kicks without putting your foot on the ground". In his video, he executed a shadowless knee; then without putting his foot on the ground, he executed a front kick then a side kick. Another combination would be a high front kick (aimed at the abdomen) and a low front kick (aimed at the knee or shin). He also did a number of combinations using front kick, side kick, etc....

[Grendel]

Originally posted by anerlich

My Sifu had a long and successful career in the ring, including several kick KO's using a fake front kick to the body, popup roundhouse to the head with the same leg. The approach has been field tested.
I successfully used the described technique in tournament and in my school back in my karate days, and as you've found, it works well.

I would not recommend kicking above the waist in a real fight.

Just trying to place your comments....is this what is meant by a Hung Gar shadowless kick? I thought it was something else, but perhaps it's the principle.

I noted that at least as far as the movies about Wong Fei Hung, he wore the long, traditional Chinese dress, so his legs were also hidden underneath, aiding in disguising the onset and delivery of the kick through the clothing.

Regards,

[cha kuen]

My sifu gave me a few hints of the shadowless kick from the hung style. He said that it's when you have the guys hands trapped, perhaps in a chinna, and you are in a position where you can kick him and the guy cannot see. There's 3 types: high middle and lower. I managed to find out one of the kicks but thats it. He wont teach me yet.

And no it's not just a really fast kick because the guy's wearing a long gown or something.kung fu books (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)

[reneritchie]

IME, Mo Ying Gerk or Yue Ying Gerk in WCK are so-named because either the angle, manner, or set-up for execution preclude the opponent from seeing or otherwise detecting them until impact.

RR