time between forms

[Patrick Gordon]

Howdy folks,

Each and every school teaches students the forms in a certain time frame. If the student were an average practitioner, how much time would you say is given between the forms? How long would it take for the average student to learn all three hand forms? What do you think the propose of have a short period verse a longer period is? I find some practitioners want the student to get a very good grasp of a level before moving on to a new stage. Others find there is no harm learning the forms quickly. What are your thoughts?

Patrick Gordon.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Learning the forms quickly?? then how good can you be? seriously? It is not how much you know that is important... it is how well you know it! a student should not learn a form untill he understands the previous one..

[John Weiland]

Hi Patrick,

Originally posted by Patrick Gordon
Howdy folks,

Each and every school teaches students the forms in a certain time frame. If the student were an average practitioner, how much time would you say is given between the forms? How long would it take for the average student to learn all three hand forms? What do you think the propose of have a short period verse a longer period is? I find some practitioners want the student to get a very good grasp of a level before moving on to a new stage. Others find there is no harm learning the forms quickly. What are your thoughts?

Patrick Gordon.
I am of two minds on teaching the forms. I have seen both approaches: a long study of each form, as Atleastimnotyou advocates, and also teaching the forms early on and letting the students thereby learn the many hands and footwork patterns so that when they progress to chi sao, they have some tools to use.

I guess I'm leaning to teaching them as quickly as the student can grasp the moves and then returning to refine the movements. I am also inclined to show some dummy hands early before formally "teaching" the dummy set.

Part of the reason I would teach as much as possible as soon as possible is to keep motivation and interest high and with luck, eliminate some of the high drop-out rate that one sees as students are brought along at a slow mastery learning pace.

Neither approach would be ideal for every student, though. There is also the negative of the rapid approach in perhaps making the students too greedy, both for "technique" and not solid fundamentals, as well as for power and hitting skills. Some students like to learn full mastery at each stage before proceeding, others want it fed to them quickly. At any rate, I think it is up to the teacher to decide when the student is ready to proceed to a new level.

Regards,

[black and blue]

I've been training for about a year and half and have been taught SNT and the first section of CK.

When I've asked Yuanfen a similar question he said he was still working on getting SNT right. At most classes I attend, we (regardless of our time in WC) go through SNT... so I guess we aim to constantly improve our first form.

I practise the first section of CK to work my turning, and should be shown the rest of this form in the next few months. Personally, I don't see the point in waiting years and years before you're given a glimpse of the second form. (well, not unless you're really struggling with SNT)

I think students with an apptitude should be 'shown' the motions... it will, after all, take us many years to 'perfect them'.

But what do I know, 18 months is NOTHING!

:)

[LMKwc]

I think that the forms should only be taught as fast as the student can handle, or slower. I would strongly disagree to teaching all the forms in a very short time frame, then going back over them to refine. The longer spent on each the better IMHO. I spent around 18 months on the first form, and near the beginning nearly lost my patience with it, but in the end I believe it was worth it. Judging by where my older brothers and sisters are, I would expect to be learning the rest of the second form over the next 18 months to 2 years :)

[S.Teebas]

I think it should be customised to each student. A goal should be set for each form eg - SNT : body unity, CK: movement while maintaining body unity..etc and the student must be able to competently and frequently show he/she has a thorough grasp of the concepts before being allowed to progress (and not before).

Some of the more commercialised schools I know; have programs where you must go to X amount of lessons before you’re allowed to see the next stage. But why boar the student if they can do what the forms main aim is. Of course it takes a life time to perfect and refine, but I see noting wrong with giving students information if they can digest it.

Actually I have to say I think this is a problem in TCMA. There seems to be an attitude of "you don’t deserve the information" in a lot (not all) schools. How can practitioners get any good if people act all secretive about their fighting methods. Its the practice that makes people good. If some one is ready and wanting to learn then they should be taught. Other arts like boxing or even other sports all openly teach their techniques and methods; so the guy who works the hardest is the best (which is why I believe they are competent in combat compared). Its pretty ridiculous to talk in riddles and cryptic messages IMHO. The only thing I can think of, is that some people have insecurities about their skill OR feel that "well I had to work it out for myself so then everyone else should too".
But if everyone helped each other I think it would be beneficial to the WC community as a whole, pushing the base skill level up will force a lot of people to become better at the art.

[12345]

Within reason I don't think it matters too much. The fact that Yuanfen says he is still working on SNT tells you that just because you start on CK or BJ (or in his case you are an experienced teacher) you do not stop working on the earlier forms.

I can see how moving on too quickly might lead the student to collect techniques but I don't think that is necessarily the case. I suppose some people will inevitably use the form you know as a substitute for a ranking system - but that is their problem not necessarily one of learning the forms sooner rather than later.

[black and blue]

Here, here! (House of Commons chant of agreement)

[stuartm]

Hi,

Tricky one to call as all students develop at differing speeds. I would tend to teach one form in about 16 months - year and a half. However, all students practice SNT at every class. Also students are not enetered to grade unless they show proficiency and understanding in what they have learned so far.

As ive probably said before , learning shapes is pretty easy but mastering those shapes in conjunction with the principles behind them is the hard but.

HOWEVER..........i fell there can be some advantages to learning some elements early. My 'Yiu Ma' was awful and i had real problem with it. My previous teacher showed me the first section of Chum Kil and it worked a treat. Similarly the dummy - it is atool to learn from and not a deity! Yes it will take years to understand the principles properly and to flow through the form, but i feel there is no harm in learning basics on te dummy from and early stage.

What you must also remeber is that the Wing Chun system is attritional - for e.g by the time you get to Bil Jee, we will have already used many of the forms techniques and principles. For example when teaching defence against arm locks, i show my students how to use bil sao as soon as they feel their elbow / centreline being controlled. By using yiu ma and bil sao they can recover their centre. Should they not be taught this then until 5 years down the line?!?!?

Come on guys, one of the reasons why WC is so popular for self-defence is that one can be proficient in a relatively short space of time. What we must always keep in mind is that even if we have completed the whole sytem - you never stop learning.

As usual, just my thoughts.

Best wishes, Stuart

[old jong]

I think it depends on the individual student's progress.Siu Lim Tao is containing elements of the other forms already and if a student is doing well with SLT and it's demands,I don't see why it should be necessary to have him wait for a long period of times.
Chum Kiu is so important and can give so much to a student concerning structure and body unity that I am inclined to say that a student should learn it as soon as he can.(IMHO)

[Dave Farmer]

On the other hand a lot of the Mc Kwoons like to place this air of mystery on the learning of the forms.

"No, you're not ready for the advanced stage yet" (because you haven't paid enough money) "but you can do an advanced 'Course' to learn the secrets" (at a Hugely inflated cost).

I know of one association in the UK with a hundreds of students, where only 5 or 6 have learned the jong.

I strongly believe in holding back until the student is ready, but holding out to fleece them is a far worse offence.

Wing Chun can be 'learned' quickly, but takes a life time to 'master'.

Trouble is my life time won't be enough for me !!

Regards

Dave F

[BeiKongHui]

I think the forms should be used to differentiate between the sihings and plebes, that they should be considered secret so that they can't be seen by younger students and it should take AS LONG AS POSSIBLE to learn them so that Sifu may profit handsomely. Oh, yeah the mystical knife form should cost at least your first born to learn (After the obligatory 20-30 year wait, of course).

j/k:D

[yuanfen]

I see no problem with tailor making the time for specific students for learning the forms. I think that some folks make too much of different levels and testing for different levels. It has elements of marketing. Having said that however - how do you judge readiness? Is it
knowing sequences(?)knowing the underlying structural and functional principles involved(?) knowing how to apply them(?)
coordination and balance in appropriate motion(?). I have advanced students doing/practicing chum kiu and biu jee around beginning students so the latter get a sense of where they are heading. Sections of chum kiu and biu jee and dummy can be used for drills and devlopment. But for teaching the full chum kiu and specially biu jee---the teacher needs to have a keen sense of the students readiness. If the student does not show the coordination, balance,
softness and sinking and clarity in the slt--- how will throwing in chum kiu help? If they dont have the basic punch down right- how will various turning punches be developed except by importing bad habits? The old adage is a good one- "When the student is ready-the teacher will come".

[old jong]

That's why I said "As soon as he can" ;)
BTW, I feel some places are using the forms as ritualistic passages of some sorts or as guardians of the gates!...Is that the money factor or the quality concern?...

[{i^(]

Sure, marketing & fortune-cookie secrecy play a role here, but so does safety- in karate, you could not safely teach board-breaking to a 2-day student, so they'll look for readiness and development the same as we.

I suppose in WC it would be similar to looking for good-enough leg development to handle the stresses of turning, sufficient relaxation to engage in chi sao, etc.

The difference is to look for what is 'necessary versus sufficient', I guess. A stable stance in turning is necessary to do CK right, but it is sufficient to know about and perform turning correctly at least sometimes in order to learn it. How soon, tho? Don't know. Could be dependent on goals of the teacher- does he want 'proper development' or someone rapidly trained that he/she can chi sao with? It happens, after all.

OTOH, this is one of the annoying but good things I tend to like about CMA- you get nowhere till you do the work, so it's earned. This thread brings up another question: does wing chun have any higher a dropout rate than other arts? if so, why?

[Patrick Gordon]

Howdy folks,

I will base teaching the student Chum Kiu on a few requirements.
1. They are able to do their Siu lim tao very well
2. They can express their SLT motions well in their chi sau
3. they have a good attitude.

If the student shows they have been able to absorb the form and its application, I feel they are ready for the next form. As for a good attitude. I am not going to waste my time on a pri!#. Although, I don't have to worry about a difficult student because they usually don't stick around since they are not getting what the want. My sifu says, a teacher will attract similiar types of people, they relate. With this in mind, all my students are fantastic individuals, just look at Old Jong.

If the Siu Lim Tao is poor, so will their Chum Kiu. If the fisrt two forms are good, you cannot have a poor third.

Patrick Gordon.

[old jong]

..I agree with this all the way!;)

[yuanfen]

Here, here! (House of Commons chant of agreement)

--------------------------------------------------------
Isn't it "hear hear" instead of here here? I am unsure because I am a herditary Lord and never visit the Commons!

[black and blue]

You are quite right... as always my typing fingers have worked quicker than my brain cell (yes... singular).

I have a joke about 'G@y Lords' bubbling up inside, Yuenfen, but I'm resisting the urge to let it out. :)

[Shadowboxer]

I have been doing WC for about 2.5 years. I know all 3 empty hand forms and we actually have another short empty hand form. However, I think when to show a student a form depends on that students abilities and understanding of principles. For example, in CK I notice that I am not always completely balanced on the lan saos with stance turning and the kick at the end before the gum saos (tu gerk?) is not quite correct. But at least I realize this and pay attention every time I do it or an application of it. Similarly, in BJ I feel off-balanced with the kwai jarns and I pay close attention to correcting this. Sifu shows us some applications from the forms as we progress, we learned seung gan sao very early on as a deflection of a roundhouse kick. Had we not had the opportunity to attend a seminar by Alan Lamb teaching BJ, I would not have learned it. But, I had demonstrated the dedication to learn WC and was in the "advanced" class and was able to go, so I was lucky. Sifu is focusing on footwork at the moment and coordination between hands and feet. I've seen only the tip of the iceberg, which only makes me want to train more as I see how pieces are just added here and there to what you already know and have been practicing and now you have more options.
Brilliantly complex and simple at the same time.

[old jong]

I always find things to work on in SLT and in all the forms.This is an evolving thing,never completed.Sometimes ,it amazes me how some little detail,so meaningless before could becomes so important or meaningfull after months or years of practice.You truely understand something only when you are ready!...But,you have to be able to do that "homework" for that to happen.Being "ready" as some places implies would simply mean having the skill before actually learning the material!

[Atleastimnotyou]

A lot of you talk about "mastering' this or that in wing chun. i personaly don't believe anyone can master anything in wing chun. you can ALWAYS refine your wing chun further and futher, therefor never "mastering" anything. i think if anyone calls someone a "master," they are just trying to be respectful. i think the term master implies there is a ceiling on there art and they cant get any better because they have "mastered" it.

[anerlich]

In our organisation learning the forms is closely aligned to the grading system. You are looking at a couple of months working on stance, punching, stepping, basic hands before starting SLT. Most would get to CK in 15-18 months. BJ after about three years.

The dummy, knives and pole are taught separately, usually in seminar format, with regular revision in class. For higher gradings you are expected to know and be competent with the material with those aspects.

With fairly large classes and a number of schools in different Australian capital cities, some sort of formal structure is essential to ensure that standards and consistency are maintained, and that all students are treated fairly.

We could stay a small group that trains in someone's garage or a park, but that's not everyone's view of a successful organisation. Gradings are not a money issue for us as we charge no grading fees, it's more a means of setting challenging but achievable goals for students and ensuring their practice is well-rounded.

My first instructor taught me all the forms (10) up to his system's instructor level (usually taking about 5 years) in about fifteen months. This was because he knew I was in town for a limited time, most of our training was one on one, and according to him I had an unusually good aptitude for forms due to my attention to detail from years of training and competition in Olympic Gymnastics. Q - does "an aptitude for forms" translate into "an aptitude for fighting"?

S.Teebas, good post, I agree with nearly all of it. However, is it possible that SOME schools which regiment their schedule for teaching forms are not so much "more commercialised", but perhaps "more organised" or "more professional"?

I fully agree with what you say about concealing knowledge or making it sound more mystical and esoteric than it actually is. That, and the glib epigrams that too many use in place of patient and detailed explanations (in some cases to obfuscate their lack of real knowledge), are probably my pet hates about CMA.

[John Weiland]

Hi Atleastimnotyou,
Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
A lot of you talk about "mastering' this or that in wing chun. i personaly don't believe anyone can master anything in wing chun. you can ALWAYS refine your wing chun further and futher, therefor never "mastering" anything. i think if anyone calls someone a "master," they are just trying to be respectful. i think the term master implies there is a ceiling on there art and they cant get any better because they have "mastered" it. When I spoke of "mastery," I was referring to it in a didactical sense as spoken in modern pedagogical parlance, and not in a literal sense. In mastery learning, the information is presented and tested before the student can advance to the next lesson.

Earlier when I spoke of teaching the three empty hand sets, I meant that I'd like to see it done within the first year of beginning Wing Chun.

There are other signs to look for when a student is ready for the wooden dummy, and more before the pole is taught, for instance development of "heavy hands" without the resistance training worked on in the pole set.

I see no benefit to a student in denying him information when he or she is ready to understand it.

Regards,

[Atleastimnotyou]

I believe the teacher will know when one of his students is ready to learn something else. They look to see if the student is in position, relaxed, and if he is precise with his energy. I believe Ken would teach the same way.

I hope no one out there tells the teacher what he wants to learn. That is just rude and out of line.

Corey

[John Weiland]

Hi Corey,
Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
I believe the teacher will know when one of his students is ready to learn something else. They look to see if the student is in position, relaxed, and if he is precise with his energy. I believe Ken would teach the same way.
Yes. If Ken is the teacher in question, then yes, he knows. He is difficult to characterize as anything other than a Wing Chun purist as a teacher. He is satisfied with nothing short of perfection in his students. And often this is expressed in working his students on the fundamentals religiously.

Since I am not a teacher, not at Ken's level, and not speaking for him, I'm expressing the opinion that there might (emphasized: "might") be a more lenient approach that coddles students' weak attention spans and lack of patience, and that this would not be all bad. :) A teacher might well say, "Hey, we need the dues."

I would never deem to tell my sifu Ben Der what it is he should be teaching me and I progress as he decides I can. But, remember, both Ben and Ken allow endless questions. :) No question is too trivial or repeated too often for them to dismiss it, so a real prodigy (not me) would be able to shine under their tutelage.

Regards,

[S.Teebas]

However, is it possible that SOME schools which regiment their schedule for teaching forms are not so much "more commercialised", but perhaps "more organised" or "more professional"?

Well I think if the luxury of customised tuition is available I believe it's still the best approach IMHO. But if the organisation is large then this is definitely not possible. In this case I agree that a curriculum would be the best approach for overall development based on the average progression of most students.

It's probably also going to come down to what a student feels comfortable with. Some might feel more comfortable with a checklist of things...others may prefer something differently.

[{i^(]

I believe some would say, "just change the tape!" LOL

[anerlich]

No question is too trivial or repeated too often for them to dismiss it

My first teacher, David Crook, was pretty patient with this too. However, many "repeat offenders" ended up playing prominent roles in his spectacular and painful "nerve points demonstrations"
:p

[PHILBERT]

Do not fear the man who practiced 1000 kicks 1 time.

Instead...

Fear the man who practiced 1 kick 1000 times.

[Mr. Bao]

Mr. Gordon:

In the old days, the forms (all 3) could be taught in a single day. But understanding and refinement of the forms took a lot work and the guidance of your teacher's decision to transmit the theories behind every movement.

Many modern students of wing chun are too quick to jump to advance without considering their mastery of the basics. The first form is very enlightening and every time I played it. I have gained something from it. I know that my understanding of sil lum tao is still growing and it is more complex than it looks.

Mr. Gordon, within 5 years you should learn all the forms that if you have a good teacher and are hard working. You can't give a definite time limit to your growth and the art.


Bao

[Dragonhand]

Let's try an experiment. Take someone(with NO martial arts training) and teach them the Wooden Dummy first. Then let's see what happens.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Dragonhand
Let's try an experiment. Take someone(with NO martial arts training) and teach them the Wooden Dummy first. Then let's see what happens. And better yet, we could start with a scientific approach about what will happen. What would your hypothesis be?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Dragonhand
Let's try an experiment. Take someone(with NO martial arts training) and teach them the Wooden Dummy first. Then let's see what happens.

Originally posted by John Weiland
And better yet, we could start with a scientific approach about what will happen. What would your hypothesis be?

If you teach someone(with NO martial arts training) the Wooden Dummy first before anything else, he will most probably beat his arms against the dummy's arms in order to make his arms as hard as the dummy's.

[Dragonhand]

This is great. If one was to TEACH the Wooden Man, they would have to teach it correctly , wouldn't you say? With that in mind let's continue with this idea shall we. Let's step out of the box and think beyond the pages. Thanks for the intelligent replys.

[red5angel]

I think I would have to go with the crowd that says it should be up to your instructor. He can tell how far along you are and can tell if you are ready to move ahead, and you should trust that. Hopefully, your instructor has a good program set up to get most people moving at roughly the same pace but regardless, sometimes you arent ready to move ahead, and sometimes you shouldnt have to wait....

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by red5angel
I think I would have to go with the crowd that says it should be up to your instructor. He can tell how far along you are and can tell if you are ready to move ahead, and you should trust that.

Really?? :eek:

I thought you're long-standing position was that most instructors "out there" are teaching bogus variants of Wing Chun....

Did your week off help you or have the meds kicked in?

[John D]

I believe that a vast majority of WC people would agree that the WC system will take a lifetime (or many lifetimes) to perfect.


The quetion of how much time is really needed in each WC step within the WC system is a valid question. IMHO, there has been far too much padding, stretching, filling, expanding, adding, and over engineering of the WC system. Bloated curriculum often ends in student confusion and frustration. To compound the problem, poor teaching methods/habits and the desire for money/power have turned WC (many other martial arts) into a bad nightmare. I sometimes wonder if some teachers are passing on the art or trying to built cults.

I am always happy to see a student progress and become competent with each form and the accompanying San Sau/Chi Sau. Hence, it is my believe that an average student practicing three times a week should should be competent in the WC (open hand) system within two years. TWO YEARS..... !

Siu Lim Tao in the first three months

Chum Kiu in add six more months

Mook Yan Jong add nine more months

Biu Jee add three more months

Lok Dim Poon Kwan = four to six months

Student teaching = minimum one year but two or more is best!

12 sections of Bat Cham Do = one year


After the first two years, the practitioner can look at refinement and polishing the mind, strategies, tactics, and WC techniques.

Regards to all... John Di Virgilio

[yuanfen]

Hi John (D): Good to see you posting.
Some comments on your post. I agree that wing chun is often rationed out too slowly for some of the reasons that you mention. There is a lot of imitation of the doling out in other ma systems as well. BUT- in two years it is entirely possible to teach the hand forms- but proficient use of them-is likely to take somewhat longer. I have yet to see a two year person use the biu jee motions efficiently, often it becomes the Bruce Lee eye poke or something like that... muscled and stiff. I teach anyone who wants to learn any sequence. I think that a dedicated practitioner can use wing chun effectively in 18 months... but for
competence in all of the hand forms- I would double your specified years--- still well under many systems. But learning things(independent of cult, money and sashes) well can take a long time. BTW, I finally got to see the
first HK wing chun gathering tape...apparently edited quite a bit-
compared to what I heard actually went on. Honest injun- IMO- the pole and bot jam do demos were disappointing. I recognized many folks but did not recognize others- par for the course.
Hope you are well, regards, Joy

[John D]

Hi Joy,

I agree with you that it will take a lifetime to refine the many parts of WC, but there is very little reason for the hand forms to be taught so very slowly. My curriculum hinges on balancing applied "San Sau" techniques with the forms. I have no problems with the two year range of instruction. I also believe that a San Sau only method can be taught faster - less than a year!

The 1999 VTAA conference demonstrations were edited to death. The "DO" demonstrate was full of nonsense. IMO, the best (and most knowledgable) "Broadsword" WC man sat quitely in his chair within the audience.

Regards,
John D.