Red5angel's training [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

red5angel

08-05-2002, 11:17 AM

This weekend I was able to go and train with Carl Dechiara at his home school in Cleveland Ohio. While most of you know how I feel about the state of wingchun it is apparently unacceptable to say so here so I will try to be more constructive in my second post.
While I am still not going to blow sunshine up anyone’s butt, I have to say that saw something this weekend that I have yet to see in a wingchun school (up from 17-18 now since going to Cleveland).
They trained the basics constantly, single/double armed sticky hands, rooting drills, sparring, etc….. I never once saw them concern themselves so much with what do I do if this happens or how can I counter that? It’s not necessary if you are training correctly and smartly. The wing chun being taught there is incredible and does not need to concern itself with those details because as the sensitivity, precision, and rooting among other things, is practiced, they transcend having to worry about specifics.
I felt things there, the control, the precision, that I have never felt in another wingchun person. They each had a solid connection to the ground. Their energy was precise, drilling straight to my spine at all times always directed towards my centerline. The forward intent was always there and they were always attentive to where your energy was going, not down to the general area, or general direction, but to the centimeter.
The point was struck home for me that they are studying something very precise and very sensitive to energy, both theirs and their opponents. These are all things that in the other schools I visited were talked about but I never felt it like this.
You don’t have to believe me, all you have to do is go and check it out, see if it isn’t there, see if what I am talking about is made up or whatever. See if you can’t learn something?

gnugear

08-05-2002, 11:22 AM

I know the other thread got closed ... but I would like to hear some more about what made your weekend such an eye opening experience for you. We know you're passionate ... but now you seem even moreso ...

Whas it something different from what you experienced at other seminars etc.?

red5angel

08-05-2002, 11:44 AM

Well, I have been to only a few seminars, two o fthem were with Boztepe. one was with some JKD guy who claimed to know alot about wingchun. I have visited to 18 schools and I guess the biggest difference would be the focus. In alot of schools they tend to focus on how to defeat something specific, or how to go back and forth with this technique or that one. They weren't doing anything more advanced then sparring, other then that they were working the crap out of the basics! With the way they did warmups, SLT, and rooting drills all of them were very solidly 'stuck' to the ground! With dan chi, double sticky hands, Pak Sau they really worked the sensitivity. The higher up students could tell me an show me exactly where my energy was going all the time. It got sort of frustrating at times because I was constantly being redirected but it was good to see where all the working out leads to!
I was really impressed by the general energy of the place. Everyone seemed to have a pretty deep understanding of where they antd to be and where they were at at all times. They were all excited to be doing it and all in all I was very impressed, I have never been to a school with this sort of energy!
The students were varied, I mentioned the youngest, and incredible 11 year old. There was a gentleman with autism, a mentally challenged individual, a woman who had been in an accident and didnt have all the use of her legs. They expressed to me that all of thier training has helpes them to get passed some of thier own "handicaps".

Gnugear - I should make it plain that only two of my post have been locked or moved but both for reasons I absolutely disagree with as they seem more a personal issue then for the general health of the forum. In the past I have had post deleted for using names and such and that is fine.

red5angel

08-05-2002, 02:37 PM

I absolutely agree Enter the whip! Before I met Carl the wingchun I practiced was horrible! But that is now changing!

Grendel

08-05-2002, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
I absolutely agree Enter the whip! Before I met Carl the wingchun I practiced was horrible! But that is now changing!
Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie
An Effective, Low-Cost Solution To Combating Mind-Control

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

You've got to get one of these.

yuanfen

08-05-2002, 07:07 PM

That is indeed funny!!

anerlich

08-05-2002, 09:15 PM

Ive seen the alfoil beanie before, not bad though.

it is apparently unacceptable to say so here

It's not necessarily unacceptable to lament about the parlous state of WC, if you have that opinion, but it seems to annoy lots of people when you say the same thing over and over in the same way without adding anything new.

While I am still not going to blow sunshine up anyone’s butt

This seems to be a fixation of yours, seeing as you mention it on every second thread. I take it Carl is excepted - his colon must be filled with sunshine to bursting point as a result of your posts.

On that subject, there appears little chance of anyone blowing any up your butt when you are so busy talking out if it. I hasten to add that such sunshine blowing is not a goal of mine.

This thread is, to quote an unnamed sports commentator, "like deja vu all over again".

sunkuen

08-05-2002, 09:23 PM

LOL@Anerlich!!!

yuanfen

08-06-2002, 06:17 AM

Anerlich sez:This thread is, to quote an unnamed sports commentator, "like deja vu all over again".
----------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently many of the same posts including the weekend training one are posted on the VTAA also.
Again, and again and again. Happy days are here again..

S.Teebas

08-06-2002, 06:58 AM

..this forum could be just a point of misdirection for you, to misguide potential enemies and such?

Care to eloborate on this?

John Weiland

08-06-2002, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by red5angel
My point Grendel is that you talk alot about who you know but not a whole lot about what you know and that strikes me as odd.

Modesty prevents me from talking about myself. :) As for who I know, that's circumstantial, not a virtue.

You dont seem to get the points I am trying to talk about or make,
That's because you don't make clear points. Try less over reaching and more practical topics.

which makes you again, suspect.

I get that a lot from the local gendarmes.

I could also point to the bizarre personality change you had, going from telling me how to act and not to fight and argue on the net to doing the very same over night (literally).
I am not aware that I have a personality.

Someday I hope to meet many of the folks here on the forum, then they can feel what I am talking about, a little chi sau, maybe a little sparring I am sure is all it will take. thats the important part here Grendel, I am getting out, seeing it, touching hands, experimenting and researching....how about you?
I enjoy meeting new people and sharing Wing Chun insights. I do not try to "show" them anything unless they have a question about my Wing Chun. However, a piece of friendly advice, watch out when you touch hands with people who read this forum.

Regards,

John Weiland

08-06-2002, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by red5angel

My topics are clear enough, I explain myself as much as I feel needs be, if it isnt understood, well I only talk about the basics so I guess someitmes even those may be hard to grasp?

If you think you're being clear, you're not. Saying you talk about basics is not the same as talking about basics. There are many "basics." Talking generally about them doesn't convey a clear idea, especially if you're trying to reach someone without "good" basics. How would we know what we don't know? I guess if one were to remember every comment you've posted, assuming anyone read them all, then you have actually touched on SOME basics. But someone else from another perspective might have something else in my when you use such a generic term.

As for people on this forum, its not an issue, I am not concerned about it because if they are interested in fighting, they can go somewhere else, but working out, sparring, chi sau, whatever, its alright by me.
I'll say again, you don't know what you don't know. I am suggesting that for the main, you shouldn't expect to meet on good terms with many readers of KFO.

The guys who talk tough arent the ghuys I am worried about,

No. They are apparently the guys I'm worried about. :)

actually I am not worried at all. When I get to meet some of these guys great, I think one way or the other they will understand where I am coming from.
An unwarranted assumption, I feel.

Or, like you they could choose to ignore what is so blatantly before them and continue to dream.
Yes, they should all be dreamers like me. ;)

Either way I will have walked away learning something everytime. That's the point. Apparently not.

Regards,

red5angel

08-06-2002, 11:56 AM

Well, John, I prefer to be a doer, not a dreamer. But lets talk about basics John, you say there are many, I say there arent that many, so what is your list of basics?

Zhuge Liang

08-06-2002, 02:15 PM

Red, no one is really disagreeing with your interpretations of Wing Chun principles. People are disagreeing with the manner in which you carry yourself in your posts. People are sick of hearing your opinion on whose Wing Chun you think is the best. Even so, you manage to stick in "Carl's Wing Chun is the real deal" in practically every thread you start. And if that weren't enough, you make sure you drill in your opinion that you think most everyone else is crap with every post. Look up the last 20 threads you started and see what percentage of them are saying essentially these two things.

You can't go around flipping people off and telling them "Hey, it's not my problem if you get upset when I flip you off. If you're upset, YOU'RE the problem. *middle finger*". But that is essentially what you're doing here.

People aren't complaining that the bible is wrong. They're complaining that the preacher's an idiot. Not that I'm calling you an idiot...

John, Dave, Kathy, myself, etc. aren't objecting to your posts because we disagree with your Wing Chun. All of us have and still train with Ken so we get to feel personally "where the power comes from." We object to your posts because we are concerned, and rightfully so, of how your posts reflect on the rest of us and on Ken. Just claiming that you speak for yourself is only a cheap way of not having to take responsibility for your words. Whether you like it or not, what you say and do reflects on your "family." This is fact. You can't change it. Now, if knowing this, you _still_ carry on the way you do, you're then basically telling us to p1ss off. As a result, you shouldn't be surprised if more than a few people, including those of your own lineage, are upset with you.

I'm not particularly upset, nor do I harbor any ill feelings towards you. I'm simply making another attempt at explaining what so many others have attempted to explain to you previously. Hope you don't take it the wrong way.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

John Weiland

08-07-2002, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
You have stated you felt wingchun was lacking some things on the ground, I just think you need to take a closer look. Wingchun has all it needs, even on the ground.
I hope you are not saying that Wingchun is the .22 to BJJ's M60?!
Hi Jason,

Could you expound on examples of Wing Chun applications on the ground? Do you practice these? Can you apply them?

Regards,

red5angel

08-07-2002, 01:03 PM

Haven't yet learn to apply what I am now learning to the ground yet. I did learn some stuff from the old WC I was learning but it was pretty weak and more made up then anything. Some guy trying to graft other stuff to WC. Otherwise alot of those techniques can be used, but I dont like to discuss techniques because it is a waste of time. Especially over the internet, we could play the you do this I do that game all day and get no where.

John Weiland

08-07-2002, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
Haven't yet learn to apply what I am now learning to the ground yet.
[much text ellided] but I dont like to discuss techniques because it is a waste of time. Especially over the internet, we could play the you do this I do that game all day and get no where. Let's not worry about wasting time at this late stage of the game. :) At least if we get specific, I can try to picture what and how you train, and not incidentally, your level of increasing knowledge. I'd bet that in two years hence, your answers would be different.

For your many fans, there is a very short clip of two gentlemen in our lineage doing chi sao. It demonstrates the close proximity and relaxed state proper to "good" Wing Chun.

Go to www.wingchun.com and select "Wing Chun in Motion!" Look under San Jose Wing Chun.

Many other interesting clips too, including one of Yip Man hisself. Worth the trip.

Regards,

red5angel

08-07-2002, 02:58 PM

Well as I said to black and blue, we can discuss it all we want, and we can even swap videos and such, but until we touch hands, it doesnt mean a whole lot. I figure you are in the same lineage so you must be training the same way right? ;)

John Weiland

08-07-2002, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
Well as I said to black and blue, we can discuss it all we want, and we can even swap videos and such, but until we touch hands, it doesnt mean a whole lot. I figure you are in the same lineage so you must be training the same way right? ;) Hi Jason,
I'll answer your question off list.

As for your further prevarication, why not explictily answer? You have said you have plenty of time. Serious Wing Chun commentary goes on all the time around you on this forum. You should consider taking part if you want to be taken seriously.

Regards,

anerlich

08-07-2002, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
Haven't yet learn to apply what I am now learning to the ground yet. I did learn some stuff from the old WC I was learning but it was pretty weak and more made up then anything. Some guy trying to graft other stuff to WC. Otherwise alot of those techniques can be used, but I dont like to discuss techniques because it is a waste of time. Especially over the internet, we could play the you do this I do that game all day and get no where.

I think this is a long winded way of you saying, "I know nothing".

anerlich

08-07-2002, 06:11 PM

I hope you are not saying that Wingchun is the .22 to BJJ's M60?!

In BJJ's area of expertise, I say it definitely is and I am entitled to my opinion, even if you regard this forum as your personal soapbox and Carl's free advertising channel (IMO he needs to fire his marketing manager).

Others are free to diasagree with me, though it seems that is not something you are able to deal with.

As you have "not yet learn [sic] to apply what I am learning to the ground", you are in no position to judge or comment.

08-08-2002, 04:42 AM

Originally posted by anerlich
Ken and Carl may have all the necessary tools to deal with a fight that hits the floor, but their #1 advertising foghorn can't come up with any proof.

Please remember that Jason hasn't even met Ken. By his own admission, though casting a reflection on Ken, he does not represent him.

For the many of us who do know and care for Ken, it seems fair to say we find the young man's behavior and his tenor of general disrespect to virtually everyone as an embarrassment to us, and a disservice to Ken.

If an EXPERIENCED student (i.e. not red5angel) from the KC lineage could enlighten me, I'd be grateful. A sincere question, not looking to diss anybody.

Stand up fighting is still and definitely our main course. Groundfighting is at best an h'ors-d'oeuvres, served only when absolutely necessary. The mainstay of our training effort is distinctly geared toward avoiding the ground.

Thankfully, our Wing Chun concepts and principles still apply on the ground, but of course you knew I'd propose that. I do not believe that most of our people get enough practice to be unquestionably competent on the ground, though in certain circumstance some may be. Most practitioners are still working to develop degrees of competence on their feet. It is hard (for me) to disagree that time spent on the floor is well invested. It's more the dilemma of opportunity costs, and also understanding that some sufficiency is required in the standup skills if it is those same skills, or a subset thereof, we intend to translate to other scenarios.

Ken has demonstrated numerous times how our Wing Chun concepts can be applied from on the ground. I am not aware of anyone from our groups who practices on the ground routinely. I won't be surprised when someone gravitates (sic) to it eventually, but more as a function of personal predilection and risk assessment , rather than a primary feature of training design. Simply put, time isn't infinite. We all pays our money and takes our chances.

I have also seen Carl on the ground, but to the best of my knowledge it was more in context of high school wrestling or something akin to it, and not intended as a demonstration of Wing Chun. Maybe others have seen more of his groundwork.

On balance, I think most would confess they still have plenty of stand up work in need of taming. Certainly I do. Maybe once I retire I'll have more time for extending and dabbling. Though the retirees I know caution me about such optimism, LOL.

Does Ken have any students presently living in Australia? Preferably with more than 7-8 months' experience and who listen as well as talk?

None that I know of. And the prospects look dim, as I found out I am too old to immigrate. ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

{i^(

08-08-2002, 06:21 AM

R5A: your answer that discussing techs is a 'waste of time' is flat out wrong. the 'i do this' game (sic) is how things are learned- thats what goes on in class, too. your answers to my question re: rooting were nothing but jargon. could you please substantiate them, maybe on that thread?

anerlich: not to jump on you or anything, but i'll add to KJ's comment-R5A certainly does not speak for the KC line, and definitely not Ken, nor is he representative of the character we try to engender. his behavior online is a common jekyll/hyde phenomenon, which he ought to look at. there are several from the KC line that can discuss techniques and the principles behind them intelligently- KJ, John Weiland, Eric Neeck (sp? & hey, why isn't he here? ;-)), and more. These individuals know each other better than i know them, so perhaps they can direct you or share commentary. as for groundfighting, you've an open mind & a willingness to do the work- a thing to be admired, not admonished.

yuanfen

08-08-2002, 09:16 AM

As for good wingchun Joy, Why dont you post your web page for everyone to see your Great Wing Chun? How hard you MUST be working at it and how GOOD it looks with your solid structure and connectedness? What happened to straightening the spine? or getting the elbows in? I'd put my 7-8 months against your 25 years or whatever any day, because rememeber, I have BEEN to your class and knows what goes on there
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the list:
1.A web page is a public thing. Mine has always been at
<www.azwingchun.com>
2. Jason aka red5angel participated in one class of mine where he didnt have a clue about wing chun including whata previous teachers background was. What time I gave to him during sil lim tao involved trying to unsuccessfully unfreeze his stiff hand in trying to do a basic tan sao. He stood in a corner and didnt have a clue on the art. He later kept on asking me for several months for advice by email on
how and where to study wing chun on Minneapolis. finally for the lat 7+ months he is associated with a study group that is associated with one of Kenneth Chung's students in Cleveland and
has started pontificationg on wing chun on various net places since then.. Jason has
not met Kenneth Chung and numerous students of Chung have expressed their embarrassment at Jason's posts.
Now that I have contradicted some of red5's pontifications he has chosen to disparage the messenger rather than taking to heart a considerable accumulation of advice given to him by many competemt folks from quite different lines on the wing chun list and elsewhere..
3. As far as putting up his wing chun against competent experienced wing chun folks- he has his dreams- actually many of them. Reality is a quite different thing. Tough talking and understanding kung fu are quite different things IMO.
4. Ignorant folks often dont understand what is in front of them and can try to reduce things to their own level of incompetence....
specially in understanding a major sytem of kung fu.It is preumptuous for a 7 month student to comment incisively on any
martial art.
5. There are now quite a few nice wing chun web pages for referrals or linkages or articles on wing chun...for beginning wing chun or other curious folks.. They include
david Williams' Planet Wing Chun, Rene Ritchies wing chun kuen
com, Lucas' Wing Chun world.
6. On lists like this one which allows anonymity some cheap shots show up.. I write in defense of the art- it should not be judged by its least knowledgeable exponents.

No need to respond...or atleast- I have spoken my piece and prefer to let it go at that. Cheers and bye for now. I know red5 will compulsively post again--judge for yourself and good luck in your own kung fu development and have fun if you can.
Yuanfen/Joy Chaudhuri :Tempe Wing Chun Gung Fu.

John Weiland

08-08-2002, 02:03 PM

Hi Jason,
Originally posted by red5angel
LOL! Your memory really is slipping! I did your class for almost two months, but apprently that keeps slipping ;).
Teachers only remember the really good students, or the really bad.

If you want to refute me I have no problem with that, just get your facts straight before hand so we dont have to go over this yet again.

Why? Obviously, even the most simple concepts alluded to by your peers and seniors are ignored. Do you ignore what Carl tells you too? One would assume so.

I am not interested in pursuing a personal war with you Joy, at your age its getting ridiculous dont you think, to be acting like this on the internet? It's ridiculous at any age.

As for good or bad wingchun, like you said your webpage is public, anyone can get your address, stop by and see what it is you have or dont have.
You claimed in another post that pictures and video are deceptive. To flip flop this way leaves your posts without content or value.

Try to post like the grownups and wrestle with the difficulty of finding the right words to convey Wing Chun ideas.

Regards,

dbulmer

08-08-2002, 03:45 PM

R5A,

I am not into bashing people ( well I do WC ! ) but seriously, listen to what yuanfan, John and anerlich are telling you.
As a fellow novice R5A , one of the first things I was asked to do by my teacher was to try to throw out any pre-conceived notions I might have about what a martial is or isn't. That process continues to the day you die. My teacher stresses the importance of practice - things don't happen overnight - you don't just wake up saying Heh I can do a tan sau or whatever you have to work at it! Some of your more aggressive posts mock the work ethic of other WC guys and this is something you are not qualified to do.

Can you imagine how it must feel to be doing WC for 20 years plus and then have a novice tell you that you don't know ****? I'd be annoyed as I am sure you would be.

I don't always agree with yuanfan ( Assam is a far superior cup of tea IMHO Darjeeling is for wimps :) ) or anerlich because I am not always competent enough to understand the points they make - neither are you. It does not mean you cannot make comments - it does not mean you have to agree with them but you should afford them respect and civility as fellow WC guys and more experienced martial artists.

If you wonder why respect and civility are not returned to you in the same measure look at how you phrase your posts.

As for BJJ, take a look at the following article:-
Development of Physical Attributes at http://www.bjj.org/articles/

That article was written by a BJJ/JKD guy but could quite easily have been written by a WC guy. WC does not have a monopoly on skill and technique - it can be found in other arts as well.

I am afraid that your arrogance on this forum (and R5A you may be the only person not to view it that way ) only shows that you have scratched the surface and no more. To go beyond scratching the surface you have to learn the lesson of SLT ie open your mind to the possibility .... the little idea.

I'm sure you'll respond with a spirited defense but please entertain the possibility that you are wrong - when so many people are getting annoyed at you, perhaps they might have a point?

anerlich

08-08-2002, 04:10 PM

A few of the more asinine r5a posts and responses to them on this thread seem to have gone into the bit bucket, which IMO is a good thing.

I meant no disrespect to Kenneth Chung or his lineage with my questions. r5a implied he knew more about Wing Chun groundfighting than I, though his own posts refute that, and I wished to hear the facts from someone who knew what they were talking about. There is floor fighting and grappling in Wing Chun, I see lots of places in BJJ practice where WC principles and structure fit right in, the practice of one art enhances and enriches the understanding of the other. Sometimes I almost feel that BJJ training is Wing Chun on the ground, just that the emphases are different. Training is exploration, not a set of steps written down on the WC stone tablets from the Shaolin temple.

With r5a as the single but notable exception, I have found the KC lineage internet folks to be highly reasonable and knowledgeable folks.

08-09-2002, 05:33 AM

Anerlich,

I didn't misread your intent, and no worries at all. Just want to ensure possible misperceptions don't self-perpetuate.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Atleastimnotyou

08-09-2002, 11:09 AM

First, I would like to say hello to you all and this is my first time posting.

Wing Chun does not teach specific things in which to do if you happen to get on the ground. Instead of asking, “What do I do when the fight goes to the ground?” Try asking your instructor, “What do I do to avoid having the fight go to the ground?” Wing Chun does teach this. If you are competent in Wing Chun then you should have enough root and have enough sensitivity to deal with your opponent’s energy before it forces you to the ground. But for discussion’s sake, lets say that you do happen to go to the ground. Although Wing Chun does not teach specific things in which to do, it does teach things that can be applied to ground fighting. For example, one of the many important things in Wing Chun is sensitivity. If you are on the ground your opponent is probably going to try to use his hands to control your arms in order to hit you in your face or other vital areas. This is where your sensitivity is very crucial! Don’t let him grab your arms. Maintain being relaxed and use your sensitivity. If you are more relaxed and have more sensitivity than your opponent, then you should be able to control his arms. Then, when you have a free hand, you better strike your opponent in his nose, eyes, or throat. Once you are able to get up off the ground, you better do so. A Wing Chun practitioner is a better fighter standing up.

Remember: When you are working with your Sifu, don’t ask him what to do if so and so happens, ask him what you should do to so that DOSEN'T happen. Then you will be a better Wing Chun practitioner.

Thanks for your time,
Corey

BeiKongHui

08-09-2002, 11:29 AM

Sometimes I almost feel that BJJ training is Wing Chun on the ground, just that the emphases are different.

Excellent point. I've always believed this myself. Some of the BJJ guys I've rolled with have been more relaxed than many WCK people I've touched hands with. I think BJJ and WCK make a sinister combination and a pretty complete fighter. :)

John Weiland

08-09-2002, 12:53 PM

Hi Corey,
Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou

Remember: When you are working with your Sifu, don’t ask him what to do if so and so happens, ask him what you should do to so that DOSEN'T happen. Then you will be a better Wing Chun practitioner.

Good post. This is what Red5Angel's response should have been. :D

Regards,

08-09-2002, 12:54 PM

Atleastimnotyou (lol),

Pretty good first time post. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Alpha Dog

08-09-2002, 12:58 PM

and you may find everyone's first posts aren't bad! (it's the follow ups that offend...)

08-09-2002, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
and you may find everyone's first posts aren't bad! (it's the follow ups that offend...)

Down with Pygmalion-pessimism.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Alpha Dog

08-09-2002, 01:32 PM

But Higgins, I can explaiiiin!

John Weiland

08-09-2002, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by kj

Down with Pygmalion-pessimism.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Hi KJ,

If our little "Galatea" logs on, all transformed, won't we be pleasantly surprised? :)

Regards,

John

anerlich

08-09-2002, 08:32 PM

atleastimnotyou,

Welcome. I agree with most of what you are saying, however I should point out that while Wing Chun relies on sensitivity and has exercises to develop it, it hardly has the franchise on it. Tactile sensitivity is ESSENTIAL to have any success in grappling. BJJ trainees practice blindfolded too, and for the same reasons. If you use strength rather than correct alignment/structure and leverage, and don't learn to relax and work off what your opp is doing, you will find progress difficult in WC or a grappling art.

BJJ has a centreline principle. It also exhorts the use of all four limbs simultaneously during the fight. Controlling the arms, as you mentioned, is the most effective defense against a guard pass. There are many similarities. I occasionally run a class running students through BJJ techniques taken from movements in the WC forms. WC has grappling and groundfighting in it already. Sometimes coming at it from a different angle increases your understanding.

Avoiding the ground is a sensible tactic for martial artists of any persuasion, but choice may be a luxury. Wing Chun can in theory work on the floor, but if you don't put that theory into practice by getting down there and training it you WILL get smoked by someone who has, should he take you down (or you fall over).

In my experience, it only takes a comparatively small amount of instruction and a few months of regular training in grappling (or whatever other way you want to do it) to develop better groundfighting skills than 98% of the population.

Tristan

08-10-2002, 01:32 AM

Groundfighting is an aspect wich has to be practiced! The Wing Chun concepts can easily be adopted to situation on the floor. It´s all indeed about relaxation, sensitivity and punching whenever possible (never wrestle a wrestler: don´t grab him when he grabs you).
"Atleastimnotyou" is right when he says winchun has the tools for fighting on the ground. But you have to learn how to use these (practise).
In fact, practicing on the ground is the least interesting fighting distance of all. When you don´t train kicking, punching, elbow and clinching distance, you´re likely to end up (fighting??) on the ground.

T.

ps IMHO WC groundfighting should be very different from BJJ.

anerlich

08-10-2002, 01:51 AM

practicing on the ground is the least interesting fighting distance of all

Opinions vary. I for one disagree, but it's a matter of opinion.

But if that's true, then that may explain why some (too many) avoid it. What you find interesting may not be what you need.

yuanfen

08-11-2002, 10:01 PM

Short notes FWIW. The real bjj folks have a lot to teach about
being relaxed on the ground. Actually good wing chun should teach parallel focus, calmness, tactile controls...not just on the ground but standing up, sitting down or whatever.
Even back in 76 we were doing wing chun drills on the ground- taughta lot about wing chun body shaping on the ground. However good wing chun folks are less likely to go to the ground than some other folks including western boxers and tkd folks IMHO of course. But in case it happens wc folks should be prepared for the ground. I dont know bjj but I have worked out on the ground with folks with ground experience. WC works for me. I havent felt the need for another art but have no criticism for folks who try out different things.

Rolling_Hand

08-11-2002, 10:43 PM

Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think BJJ and WCK make a sinister combination and a pretty complete fighter. --Beikonghui
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a peak time for you and a low time for Red5....hm!?

Tristan

08-12-2002, 03:37 AM

Some lineages even introduced a kind of supplementary groundfighting form: Just to drill the basic techniques:

http://www.defenceclub.de/gratisdownloads/gratisdownloads.html

Look under "bodemkampf form"

T.

Tristan

08-13-2002, 07:57 AM

Yes.......?

And..........?

Did you like it? Why not?!

T.

black and blue

08-13-2002, 08:34 AM

... took ages to download, but was so funny it was worth it :)
Would have been better if he'd demo'd his breakdancing with a partner.

Still, good to see so many video files on a site. His CK form looked a bit wobbly in the stance, but who am I to pass comment.

I didn't download all the files... are there any of him doing Chi Sau?

Duncan

old jong

08-13-2002, 08:48 AM

Why do this in the "traditionnal" way and make a form out of it?...Now the students will have to figure how to and when to and against what they could use these moves!...Why not (like any ground fighting school or style) just tell them..."here's a move you can use in this or that circumstance!...and drill it untill it is fully understood and effective?...
I bet there is some extra charges and paying tests to learn those "secrets"!...

black and blue

08-13-2002, 08:54 AM

All you need is some plastic piping sticking out of your house!

:D :p :D :p :D :p :D

BeiKongHui

08-13-2002, 10:43 AM

This is a peak time for you and a low time for Red5....hm!?

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Please clarify.

joy chaudhuri

08-13-2002, 11:24 AM

BeiKongHui; I generally just ignore resident rolls like rolling hand
and their mysteries and digs.They need the attention.

B& B; that ground rolling is not really a form but isnt so bad as a
supplementary exercise. BTW- the quote from the prolific poster-
is it from him? Trolls take on different personae possibly even his.

Tristan

08-13-2002, 12:59 PM

I didn't download all the files... are there any of him doing Chi Sau?

Duncan Try the first one: ".... kampfkunst-impression". It shows some chisao, chigerk, some of his long pole and his broadswords.

T.

anerlich

08-13-2002, 04:12 PM

I downloaded the file late Sunday night my time, I need to download realplayer again when real world issues permit..

Somehow I doubt Royce Gracie or JJ Machado have a lot to worry about.

planetwc

08-13-2002, 05:03 PM

Hey Andrew,

Hope things are going well in aussieland.

Unless things have changed in the few weeks I was on vacation, at least at Ken's school we are not training in groundfighting. While there may be applications one COULD reason out from Wing Chun structure etc. the truth is that in class no one in doing Chi Sao on the floor, or attempting to resist a takedown or training against an entry for takedown (a la Mario Sperry's tapes) or dealing with getting up or being in guard or preventing pass the guard or dealing with side control or the mount.

I haven't been to Sifu Ben's class in San Jose in years so I can't comment on what is being trained or not trained there. I'd leave that to John Weiland to comment.

Carl may be doing other things in his school.

The reality is, as you well know that if one is not consistently training on the ground one really won't have the reflexes for dealing with things there. If you don't train in that range, you won't be optimal in it--plain and simple.

:eek:

I also find it specious that people believe that they will actually be able to ALWAYS defeat a takedown or never slip and end up in their non-optimal range of combat. Guys with decades of experience in grappling and wrestling and groundfighting get taken down via a variety of means. The difference for them is that they can DEAL with things there. Yet somehow the average joe Wing Chun guy can resist a takedown where a former gold medal Olympian can get kneebarred in an NHB match. Fascinating.

:rolleyes:

I think as you probably do that every Wing Chun person's experience would be improved vastly if they cross trained in BJJ to say the blue belt level to at least get a clue about the reality which could await there on the ground. It would if nothing else give them a sense of what to expect from someone who wants to put them there and submit/pound or choke them, AND it would give them a realistic base to counter train against (ie to know how to REALLY shoot, how to really establish mount and position, pass the guard, do escapes etc).

Presuming I can get over my shoulder injury I would like to do so myself (train in BJJ) to get that kind of experience. I know that the guys in the UK at Kamon Wing Chun also mention the same things you do with regard to similarities in sensitivity and the like in BJJ. I suspected as much and was wondering what WC folks who have done so would think after having time to reflect on it.

So, unless people are off experimenting on their own, there is no formal groundfighting training done within our group. That is not to say there isn't interest in learning it.

I wonder how many here actually train intensively in their "Wing Chun Groundfighting" on a weekly basis such that they could hold their own against BJJ Blue Belt level practictioners on a consistent basis?

I think that is the measuring yardstick to use here.

regards,

David Williams

Originally posted by anerlich

In BJJ's area of expertise, I say it definitely is and I am entitled to my opinion, even if you regard this forum as your personal soapbox and Carl's free advertising channel (IMO he needs to fire his marketing manager).

Others are free to diasagree with me, though it seems that is not something you are able to deal with.

As you have "not yet learn [sic] to apply what I am learning to the ground", you are in no position to judge or comment.

anerlich

08-13-2002, 06:06 PM

Extremely well said.

If this forum would let me I'd give your post 5 thumbs up instead of just one.

I agree 100%. Plus, you might even have some fun and make some new friends.

cheers

Andrew (you remembered the AbMan!)

P.S. The thread only went down this BJJ/groundfighting track because Mr "Wallah!" took it there. Not because I pushed it that way.

Atleastimnotyou

08-13-2002, 06:45 PM

"Carl may be doing other things in his school. " -Planetwc

I am one of Carl's students. I have been with him for 6 years.
I would just like it to be known that Carl teaches the wing chun he learned and IS learning from Ken. So we too do not go over any groundfighting in class. Instead, we learn how to avoid going to the ground. But i would like to see a bjj guy and Carl/Ken go at it. It would be interesting.
I say that because i dont believe either of them can be taken down unless it was by surprise. But really, when was anyone taken down by surprise? if a guy wants to attack you, you will know because he will either make threatening comments or do something else to let you know beforehand. so i believe any good wing chun practicioner will send the guys energy back into one of his week points. like his neck perhaps.
i hope i didn't come across sounding like red5, it is just MHO.

Corey

anerlich

08-13-2002, 07:19 PM

Do you know red5? And no, you don't sound like him.

Atleastimnotyou

08-13-2002, 07:30 PM

I have never met red5. I had the chance when he came down to cleveland but life intervened i guess. But i would have loved to have done chi sau with him. When i read what he wrote about the "storm on the horizon" stuff, i just laughed my head off. I don't believe anyone with that kind of ego can get really good in our lineage. Because: I have been with carl for 6 years so i have seen people come and go, and the ones that always go (no matter how enthusiastic) are the ones with the egos.

Corey

anerlich

08-13-2002, 08:28 PM

Well said about the egos, and IMO the "storm on the horizon" is more like a small plume of intestinal gas from the outhouse in the backyard :p

yuanfen

08-13-2002, 10:18 PM

The reality is, as you well know that if one is not consistently training on the ground one really won't have the reflexes for dealing with things there. If you don't train in that range, you won't be optimal in it--plain and simple.
(David Williams with Anerlich in agreement)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagreements are ok among people who represent each other....
and in this case I do disagree...which is ok...no missionary bones in my body. If I play Royce's game, I lose--- he has been at it for a while. If he(idealized Royce) plays my game he loses- also plain and simple. Interestingly, in the second Shamrock-Royce match shamrock changed the game witha single pretty clumsy punch.Some explanation and practice of wing chun in different contexts including the ground occurs among people I know. But we spend more time in furthering development of wing chun and wing chun reflexes which are versatile and do work on the ground. I much rather become superb with wing chun skills and its adaptations to circumstances than be mediocre in two activities. It should be and I think it is difficult to take a properly trained wing chun person down. Yes, he can also slip and fall or
ina multiple attack be taken down- cant be egotistical about that possibility-but there are lots of wing chun weaponry to help in those situations. Understandably and sociologically what seems to be happening in wing chun is that some
(Group A) are improving their wing chun while others(group B)
are opting for ground/bjj importing, or escrima or taiji etc. I obviously belong
quite merrily to group A. Further analysis would or could ruffle inter-lineage feathers.

John Weiland

08-14-2002, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Understandably and sociologically what seems to be happening in wing chun is that some
(Group A) are improving their wing chun while others(group B)
are opting for ground/bjj importing, or escrima or taiji etc. I obviously belong
quite merrily to group A. Further analysis would or could ruffle inter-lineage feathers.
Hi Joy,

Phooey on this discussion. :) Mark me down for grupa A too. Not to ruffle any intralineage feathers, I went out tonight and bought myself a blue belt to keep Dave happy. Ordinarily I don't do pastel clothing, but Dave's a senior, so I listen. :) I also got some matching socks.

Dave and I are of different minds on mixing Wing Chun with ground fighting arts.

I have studied aikido, judo, and jiu jitsu; now I study Wing Chun. I no longer practice going to the ground or fighting on the ground and feel no need to do so. When I inadvertantly drop someone to the ground, it is an accident. I don't like it, because I want him standing so I can hit him until I'm done with him.

We have various of our school's members keeping us abreast of what's happening at Frank Shamrock's school and in professional fighting circles. These relatively formidable individuals who mix their arts are not our best at Wing Chun skills, though they aren't the least either.

They and I freely admit and recognize the superiority of Wing Chun to BJJ, Muay Thai, Bagua, MMA, boxing, and wrasslin.'

See you at the picnic August 24 in Cupertino. :)

Regards,