Kuen Kuits (sp)

[Nat from UK]

Anybody point me in the direction (web) to a good source of Wing Chun Kuen Kuits, I am interested in anything at all, but primarily the different Kuen Kuits themselves and their history, who actually made them up -

Do any teachers on the forum actually cover them in their teaching? IF so how?

Thanks up front for any help given

Nat from UK

[yuanfen]

Some kuen kuit is common to mosr lineages...while other kuen kuit are lineage specific. Wing chun poetry like some other CMA poetry
are ways to capture principles of the art as a compressed forms of transmission of knowledge.

[yuanfen]

An ex student of Augustine Fong had an extensive kuen kuit list on the net. His site is gone...but the stuff was in the archives of Wing Chun World. I havent visited the Wing Chun world lately-
so I dont know whther they cam back up again after being down.

[reneritchie]

They can vary a lot, sometimes by branch, sometimes by individual teacher. Moy Yat sifu had a good book on Yip Man system Kuen Kuit (Boxing Rhymed Formulae), which may or may not still be available (Tom?).

In general, some KK are WCK specific, some Southern MA specific, and some are classics which date back to the 36 Strategies (Yee Yaat Toi Lo) or Art of War (Sien Faat Jai Yan).

Rgds,

RR

[Tom Kagan]

The book, Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit, by Moy Yat, is out of print. A used book service might be able to help you.

Before my Sifu's untimely passing, he was putting finishing touches on a reprint of the book. There is no word yet as to when the Moy family will go through the ordeal of releasing a revised edition.


One additional thing: I mean absolutely no offense (nor am I mad at you - stop accusing me of this :) ). But, frankly, I'm rather tired of reading your incorrect translation of "Kuen Kuit" to the point where I can no longer hold my tongue. :p

"Kuen," in this instance, does not mean boxing (or fist). The same Cantonese sound is a hom-onym for the correct ancient ideogram interpretation which translates as "Written." The "Kuit" ideogram translates as "Song." Together, they are interpreted literally as "Written Song" or "Poems in Stone." Perhaps more succinctly (but with less flair), it translates as "Lyrics."

A "Hao Kuit" or "Oral Poem" favorably compares to Canton Province's version of a roundeau. When a "Hao Kuit" is specifically recorded for posterity and in an artistic form, then and only then does it become "Kuen Kuit."

Thus far, I am only aware of the Yip Man lineage having Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit (http://www.moyyat.com/seals.htm). Like many other families of Ving Tsun and also of other Kung Fu and Martial Arts, it also has thousands of Hao Kuit.

There is nothing sacred about "Hao Kuit." It is merely meant as a rule-of-thumb which is uncovered by any astute practitioner and treated as sort of a gift to mark the understanding of a concept, warning, or story. Even American English has them.

Some of you may remember "In fourteen hundred and ninety two, Columbus sailed the ocean blue." Translated into another language or read or heard by another English speaker not from the U.S., it probably makes very little sense. This "Hao Kuit" has a quality which can even be distorted by writing "1492" for the year because not everyone will read that number in a lyrical manner.

How do you translate a song sang centuries ago without butchering it? You usually can't. ;)


I hope your next edition of your own book will include this correction. :D

[Nat from UK]

Is there a definitive listing ??

The link refers to "52 verifiable wing chun kuen kuits" I can only recall about 10

Any ideas ??

Nat from UK

[yuanfen]

Who defines definitive?
Some songs are common to all... some are lineage specific...
some come from general Chinese lit. including Sun Tzu-
some are region specific- some are art specific- some are
lineage specific...no catechism here...
the moving finger writes and having written moves on...
yuanfen

[reneritchie]

Hey Tom,

Thanks. I have a copy of the original but would look forward to an updated one. Please let me (us?) know what, if anything, comes of it.

WRT offense or your relative state of mind, as someone with a tremendous amount of experience online (almost 10 years, most of those in moderation with professional organizations), you may want to pay closer attention to the "tone" of you posts, which may (or may not) come across other than as you intend them. 8)

WRT Kuen Kuit, it's not actually a term used in the method I study (we use You Kuet/Yao Jue/Important Rhymed Formulae). Hao Kuet I've heard only occasionally. I've only heard Kuen Kuit online from those of other branches, and they seemed to translate it as Fist Sayings. I appreciate the correction.

FWIW - Yuen Kay-San spent a large part of the late 1920s and early 1930s formalizing and writing down WCK methodology. We have formal sets in 4 character and 5 character couplets.

RR

[Tom Kagan]

Hi again. My understanding is "You Kuet" and "Hao Kuit" are the same thing. They are the same ideograms but in pronounced slightly differently in regional dialects of Cantonese. The term is used to mean a person is saying something important, so I agree that "Important Rhymed Formulae" is a good interpretation. But, "Rhymed Formulae" is a rather clinical way to say "poem" - something meant to convey emotion - don't you think? ;)


You like po-tay-to, and I like po-tah-to ... Funny thing about that song. When Cole Porter wrote it, some unknowns in other countries made cover versions of the song before the American recording made its way to their land. They did their cover version from the written sheet music. Written down, it went /tomato, tomato/potato, potato/let's call the whole thing off./ Imagine how those so called artists felt when they heard the lyrics sung correctly. ;)

From what little I've learned (and I mean only a little compared to the small amount you've shown in your books and on your mailing list), there's a lot of stuff like this in Ving Tsun. For instance, how do you translate the "Chum" ideogram in "Chum Kiu?" "Searching" or "Sinking," I suppose, are both reasonable. But if you go back centuries to the era when the ancestors named the form, you might discover another usage of the same ideogram abandoned long ago: It's a unit of measurement roughly equivalent to about 8 feet. "Chum Kiu" = "Short Bridge"; the exact opposite of "Chern Kiu" = "Long Bridge."

What is "Chum Kiu" a short bridge from/to? Easy: it goes from Siu Nim Tao to Biu Jee. BTW, if you find other ancient translations for the "Nim" & "Biu Jee" ideograms, you come up with an ancient (but common for the time) contraction for a longer "Hao Kuit" having nothing to do with martial art but which finds its origins in Chinese opera. (lightbulb here :) ) Roughly translated, that poem could say: "The seeds of intent find a short bridge using a standard compass."

I believe, though the ancestors were not scholars, they were quite clever with their choice of ideograms.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot: Mike Patak put together a page of some of the Hao Kuit available on the web: http://www.maivingtsun.homestead.com/
and also my SiHing, Leo Imamura, has some in Portuguese: http://www.vingtsun.org.br/

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Here are some I picked up unfortunately I do not remember where I got them from. At the end is a link to an internet site which contains a number of sayings/maxims as well. The site seems to be affiliated or proponents of things I ahve heard from members of both Randy Williams and Augustine Fongs lines. However, I am not saying that this site is representative of either lineage.

Some sayings and interpreations are as follows, Hey Rene, maybe I picked these up on your site?? Don't know where I got them but I put them on CD for reference.

Lai Lou Hui Sung, Lut Sao Jik Chung (As he comes, receive; As he goes, escort; If you've lost control of the hands, rush in)

Kuen Yao Sum Faat
(Sao Yao Sum Faat)

Kuen Yao Sum Faat (Quan You Xin Fa) breaks down as follows: Kuen represents 'the hand rolled up' and means 'fist, or boxing'; Yao has come to mean 'from, by, cause, or reason'; Sum represents the 'heart', and by extension, 'feelings, mind, intent, middle, or center'; Faat represents a 'bow opening a path beneath the feet', and means 'to shoot, launch, issue, distribute, become, or occur'. Together, they can mean 'the fist launches from the center', 'boxing comes from intent', 'punch by shooting the center (of gravity)', etc.
One variation, rather than using kuen, uses sao (shou), which represents 'the hand' and can also imply 'techniques', and gives the meaning 'techniques come from the center'.

Lien Siu Dai Da

Lien Siu Dai Sa (Lian Xiao Dai Da) breaks down as follows: Lien represents 'carts moving' and means 'connect, join, or successive'; Siu represents 'smaller embodiment of water' and means 'cancel, dispel, vanish, disappear'; Dai represents 'cloth bound by a pendant belt' and means 'belt, sash, band, to carry, or to bring'; Da represents 'nailing with hand' and means 'to hit, punch, fight, or do'. Together, they mean 'join cancelling to bring hitting' (often translated as 'simultaneous offense and defense').


Loi Lao Hoi Sung

Loi Lao Hoi Sung (Lai Liu Qu Song) breaks down as follows: Loi represents 'wheat' but has come to mean 'to come, or arrive'; Lao represents 'stopping like a barred door in a water-channeled field' and means means 'to remain, stay, detain, or delay'; Hoi represents 'an (altered) person lacking in straight-forwardness' and means "to go, or remove"; Sung represents 'the merged stepping and stopping of movement around the dowry given to slaves' and means 'to give, to escort, to accompany or to send off.' Together, they mean 'stay with what comes, send off what goes', 'detain what arrives, escort what is removed', etc.


Lut Sao Jik Jong
(Fung Lut Jik Jong)

Lut Sao Jik Jong (Shuai Shou Zhi Chong) breaks down as follows: Lut represents a derivative of ' use' to suggest 'disposal' and means 'to throw off, leave behind, or set free'; Sao represents 'the hand' and is extended to 'the arm'; Jik represents 'ten eyes seeing nothing hidden', and means 'straight forward'; Jong represents 'serious marching' and means 'to charge, or thrust'. Together, they mean 'the free hand charges straight forward'.
A variation uses fung (feng), which represents 'moving and meeting', to give the meaning 'when set free, charge straight forward'.

Yao Ying Da Ying

Yao Ying Da Ying (You Xing Da Xing) breaks down as follows: Yao represents 'right hand grabbing (altered) meat' and means 'to have, possess, exist'; Ying represents 'lines of equal height' and means 'shape or form'; Da represents 'nailing with hand' and means 'to hit, punch, fight, or do'; Ying, the second time, is a repeat of the first. Together, they mean 'have shape, hit shape'.

Mo Ying Da Yieng

Mo Ying Da Yieng (Wu Xing Da Ying) breaks down as follows: Mo represents, in its later form, 'forest destroyed by a multitude of people' and means 'not, no, without'; Ying represents 'lines of equal height' and means 'shape or form'; Da represents 'nailing with hand' and means 'to hit, punch, fight, or do'; Yieng represents 'shape like the scenic sun above the hill' and means 'shadow or impression'. Together, they can mean 'no shape, strike impression'.



Yao Ying Juk Lao

Yao Ying Juk Lao (You Ying Xu Lui) breaks down as follows: Yao represents 'right hand grabbing (altered) meat' and means 'to have, possess, exist'; Yieng represents 'shape like the scenic sun above the hill' and means 'shadow or impression'; Juk represents 'thread outward purchase' and means 'continue, renew, extend'; Lao represents 'stopping like a barred door in a water-channeled field' and means means 'to remain, stay, detain, or delay'.Together, they mean 'have impression, continue to stay'.

Mo Yieng Po Jung

Mo Yieng Po Jung (Wu Ying Po Zhong) breaks down as follows: Mo represents, in its later form, 'forest destroyed by a multitude of people' and means 'not, no, without'; Yieng represents 'shape like the scenic sun above the hill' and means 'shadow or impression'; Po represents 'stones and the hand-held hide of an animal' and means 'break or cleave'; Jung represents 'line bisecting an enclosure' and means means 'center or middle'. Together, they mean 'no impression, cleave the center'.





Good luck.

Peace,

Dave

http://www.afn.org/~afn59160/kuit.htm

[reneritchie]

Tom - Well said, and very interesting.

Dave - Some of those might be from my archives site.

Rgds,

RR

[EmptyCup]

a few more from the top of my head...but warning that they are not direct translations of the cantonese but just an attempt to covey their general meaning

"bong say gay gum"

the bong sau cannot be pressed


"bong sau mo ding ying"

bong sau has no still form


"gum tao gut mei"

press the head, raise the tail"


"foong bong beet wu"

everytime you bong you must wu

[EmptyCup]

P.S.

I believe that rene and robert chu's book "Complete Wing Chun" has a number of them in it

[reneritchie]

EC - Interesting. We have "Bong Baat Ting Lao" (Wing Not Stop or Stay) and "Yiu Bong Bik Kao" (Meet Wing Must Detain)

RR

[EmptyCup]

could you send me the leung sheung story you mentioned in the other topic? i asked there but i don't know if you saw it or not

thank you

[Wingman]

Sihing73,

Your post about kuen kuit is very informative. Thank you very much for the info.

I have come across a similar kuen kuit you mentioned above:

"have shape, hit shape.
no shape, strike impression.
have impression, continue to stay.
no impression, cleave the center".

The kuen kuit I came across is slightly different. It goes like this:

"have form, hit form.
no form, strike shadow.
have shadow, stay.
no shadow, cleave the center".

What does this kuen kuit mean? I can understand the meaning of "form or shape", but what does "shadow or impression" mean?

Your opinion on the matter is highly appreciated.

[reneritchie]

Shape and Form are both attempts at the Chinese character Ying (Xing). Shadow and Impression at the Chinese character Yieng (Ying). Basically, I think it addresses a solid, for-sure target (something identified in direct view) vs. a flash of movement caught in peripheral vision -- maybe a target/threat, maybe not.

Rgds,

RR

[yuanfen]

A parallel/similar transmission-

"Strike any presented posture, if it is there.Otherwise strike where you see motion"

I have a scanner- dont know how to use it, preserving life's absurdities- so I cant scan in the
"poetry" in Chinese. But I find the sayings insightful and beautiful.

joy chaudhuri

[reneritchie]

Joy - Agreed on the beauty of the Chinese. The ones Dave posted, including the Chinese characters and common variations, are up at http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/idioms/index.shtml

Rgds,

RR

[Wingman]

Thanks yuanfen & reneritchie for you opinions. I must say that,

"have form, hit form.
no form, strike shadow.
have shadow, stay.
no shadow, cleave the center".

sounds more poetic and profound. But yuanfen's,

"Strike any presented posture, if it is there.Otherwise strike where you see motion"

is more easily understandable.

[Sihing73]

Hello Wingman,

Seems I was a bit tardy in getting back to you. Seems like the answer has already been given to you by two more competent than I.

Personally I like Yuanfens one as well. Kind of like the NIV instead of the KJ. Nice modern paraphrase.

Peace,

Dave

[kj]

Originally posted by Sihing73
Personally I like Yuanfens one as well. Kind of like the NIV instead of the KJ. Nice modern paraphrase.

I resemble that remark. ;)

[yuanfen]

Then what does NIV resemble?
Since I know what KJ resembles!

[Tom Kagan]

Wingman said: ... sounds more poetic and profound. But yuanfen's, ... is more easily understandable.Perhaps. But if you ponder the original, you might find it can say a little more than something "more easily understandable."

Take too much away - especially with an artistic expression of emotion - and you could end up with Orwell's Newspeak.

Sihing73 said:Personally I like Yuanfens one as well. Kind of like the NIV instead of the KJ. Nice modern paraphrase. If you ponder how you can thread a camel through the eye of a needle, it may occur to you that "camel" is an ancient way to also refer to "camel's hair thread" - the excellent sewing material available at the time the phrase was originally spoken. You can also ponder the word "needle" being ancient way to refer to a guarded gate into a city.

While you're at it, you can also think about about women submitting unto their husbands when the word "submit" can also mean "to put forth an idea."

Perhaps ancient Chinese opera performers weren't the only clever ones in carefully choosing their words. :D

Here's Mike Patak's corrected URL: http://www.maivingtsun.homestead.com/MainPage.html

[yuanfen]

There are different collections of the kuit- many were orally transmitted as sources of insight from teacher to student.
An important thing is that the translator captures the meaning without adding his/her own ornamentation.
The one that I mentioned on the list was transmitted directly without additional ornamentation.
Of course there are translations and translations.
If one translation or another helps someones insight into
wing chun- the kuit has served a purpose. Others can legitimately read other things into it that one reader missed.. Good guidance accompanying the kuit of course
helps learning the art....better than subjective inferences by a casual reader without some tacit and decent enough knowledge of the art..Kuit is no substitute for personal guidance in art.
Tai chi poetry is more extensive and is part of literature- wing chun transmission compared to taichi is less written and more oral. But when insight occurs-the beauty is self evident.

[Wingman]

Tom Kagan said:

Perhaps. But if you ponder the original, you might find it can say a little more than something "more easily understandable."

Take too much away - especially with an artistic expression of emotion - and you could end up with Orwell's Newspeak.

It is very difficult to translate one language to another. In the same way, it is difficult to express poetry into prose. You will add or subtract something in the process. Take for example Sun Tzu's Art of War. The book has many translations. Each one is quite different from the other. In order to get the essence of what Sun Tzu originally wrote, you have to study Chinese. But for some (like me), it is not an option.

Some "Art of War" translations have commentaries inserted between Sun Tzu's original words. They try to explain what Sun Tzu wrote. They also try to explain the meaning of the particular Chinese character during Sun Tzu's time. The same Chinese character may have a different meaning then and now.

I think it is important to have the original, more poetic text. But a more practical and understandable interpretation/commentary can complement the original, more poetic expression.
:)

[Tom Kagan]

Wingman,

I agree commentary can be crucial to understanding. But too much analysis can also distort the meaning quicker than a poor translation. Poetry (and Ving Tsun) is about emotion. Because of this, I think it is best to keep commentary to an absolute minimum.

Yuanfen,

I agree proper guidance is essential. Not only do they need a deep knowledge of Ving Tsun, but must be well rounded in other areas, too. If they're too myopic, they might miss that "a red flower relies upon an everlasting spring," could really be borrowed from a farmer lamenting over this year's plum crop.

Or, maybe not. After all, another Hao Kuit from a good guide says you have to see for yourself; I might be tricking you. ;)

"Spring, summer, autumn, winter . . . then spring again." -- Chance the Gardener

[yuanfen]

Yuanfen,

I agree proper guidance is essential. Not only do they need a deep knowledge of Ving Tsun, but must be well rounded in other areas, too. If they're too myopic, they might miss that "a red flower relies upon an everlasting spring," could really be borrowed from a farmer lamenting over this year's plum crop.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Tom- True. Understanding the inner meanings of things
specially Asian poetry is a special way of "knowing"
and missing in much of education..
Many, including some truly mechanical engineering types
never get it.

[Wingman]

"glass head, bean-curd body, and iron bridges." I got this kuen kuit from Robert Chu's article,"The Wing Chun Mind" (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/chusauli/new/martial/articles/articles_mind.html)

This means that you must protect with your iron bridge your:
1. head -- because it is very fragile like glass.
2. body -- imagine what a punch will do to a body made of bean-curd (tofu)!
The iron bridge can also be used for attack.

We have a similar version, but it says, "cotton body" instead of bean-curd body". "Cotton body" means that your body can absorb some blows just like cotton. But still you have to protect it with your iron bridge.

[yuanfen]

The cotton and bean curd also has double or meanings- on being soft. Dont tighten muscles that are not needed for a motion.