A Challenge....

[red5angel]

I have a challenge for anyone who is able to come to minneapolis June 29th and 30th. We are having a seminar with Carl Dechiara that weekend. Some of you have accused me of spamming because I mention him and his skill periodically but I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.
You come up, check it out, see what he has to offer. I guarentee you will be suitably impressed if you have an open mind. You can stay at my place, I have plenty of space, I can get you there and back both days, all you have to do is show and participate.
Right now your confident the wing chun you are learning is the good stuff right? I was too and I wouldnt be here right now if I didnt know in my gut that this is the real deal. I hear a lot of people who say they have touched hands with someone who has convinced them they know what it is all about, I am saying here is your chance.
We are always arguing what makes good wing chun on this forum. I see a lot of guys talking a big game but they dont seem williing to explore it a little and challenge what they know.
For those of you who are just starting out, here is the chance to learn what direction you could and should be heading in.
For those of you who have learned enough, long enough to feel you can judge someone and thier skill by touching thier hands, here is your chance. Check out the post about the minneapolis seminar, and email michael or pm me for any details or questions you have.

I am not interested in getting into an argument about what is better, what is spamming, what is right or wrong. I am saying if you want to find out, then here is your chance. Check your ego at the door and you will learn something!

[Sihing73]

Hi Redangel,

While I can appreciate your apparently unwavering support of your Sifu I must say that using words like "challenge" can cause problems. After reading your post I think that I understand that you are not looking for any type of fight but are kind of telling others that you have found the "true deal" and are inviting them to experience it as well. But why not make this an "invitation" rather than a "challenge?"

While your zeal is commendable, there is the underlying tone of "my way is the best way" which can be misconstrued and perhaps cause problems. Knowing how fragile some egos are, and how violate others tempers can be I think I would opt to tone it down just a bit. While you have found a method and approach which suits you and is among the better ones available, by several different accounts, let us not forget that each method and approach has validity.

Also, since you have opted to invite others to attend and even to stay at your house I was wondering if you would foot the bill ;). I know that I might take a trip out to visit and learn if the cost were being picked up by someone else. :D I am always looking for the free things in life ;)

Seriously, your ardour is commendable but the tone is a bit rough. Be careful as I am sure this event is one which will not be served if others arrive with intentions other than learning and exchanging. Much like another seminar with another "challenge" several years ago :rolleyes: It does neither yourself nor your Sifu any good to issue any type of challenge and only opens the door to something unpleasant regardless of the outcome. Besides, as history has shown, no matter the outcome most people will go their way unchanged anyhow :(

Peace,

Dave

[wujidude]

Carl has studied for a long time and attained good skill in Wing Chun under Kenneth Chung. What then motivated him to become an "indoor disciple" (his words) of Chen Qingzhou in Chen style taijiquan? And practice the Lao Jia Yi Lu form of Chen taijiquan 7-10 times a day (again, his words)--something that would take at least 4 hours of continuous practice each day.

Has Chen taijiquan improved Carl's Wing Chun? I'm just curious, because I've seen some different threads on combining Wing Chun training with another art, very often taijiquan.

Seems to me like the relaxation and rooting aspects of Chen taijiquan would work well with Kenneth Chung's "soft touch" approach in Wing Chun.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

[red5angel]

Dave, I sometimes come off a bit rough, being in the marines and growing up in my family will do that to you! "Invitation' would probably be more approachable and it may seem more friendly but I think challenge is apropriate here. "Allow me to retort...."

I have seen a lot of talk on this forum, and several others about what is good, what is bad, what is correct and what is not. Some people choose to take the middle road, its all good for someone, and while that may be true, there is some of it out there that isnt really good for anyone. If it comes off as my way is the best way, well fist of all its not really my way, its Carl Dechiaras and Kenneth Chungs way and I think it is the right way. So much so that I would invite anyone to come, take a look at it experience it, even practice it a little and see what I am talking about.
Of course I am not looking for a fight or to set up a fight :) I am sincerely interested in getting people to come try it out. All thing sbeing equal if you can afford to make the trip and are into wing chun, it will, I believ, be worth your while.
I did however mention that I wasnt interested in fighting with anyone or arguing finer points, this was an invitation to experience it.
Why do I believe in what I am learning? Several reasons, the first, I saw it in action against someone who just about anyone would recognize has some real skill, and it destroyed them. This person couldnt compete at all with it. He had no real root, no real sensitivty, although if you were to ask him or talk to him about it, or look at him you would have assumed it to be true. But you would be wrong. The second reason, because Carl Dechiara seems willing to take the pepsi challenge if you know what I mean? I cannot speak for him and I am not saying he would want to duke it out with anyone and everyone who came along, but I think he would be willing to show you that what he has is the real thing. I see the sincerety in him and his desire to develope his skill and the skill of his students. he believes in what he does and I also believe that he would admit if something better came along. I just dont think there is, my opinion of course.
LOL! on that free thing, sometimes you have to pay your dues to get something! I had considered offering to pay for someone if they felt that what they had was better and could prove it at the seminar, but a.) that sounds too much like a challeneg and I want to keep it friendly! and b.) who knows who you can trust now a days to be honest! Dave, you seem like an honest guy and if you can get yourself out here I would take you up on that challenge.

Regardless of how I came off, this is a friendly invitation adn I definitly think it would be worth anyones time to come out.

[red5angel]

Wujidude, while I cant speak for Carl, I can say that we do some Taichi excersise atht help us to develop our root and relaxation. Carl has integrated them into our warm up excersises to help us develop these a little faster.
I know he trainis at Chen Village atleast once a year and takes it very seriously but as fo rhis motivation and such, you will just have to email him on it.

[fa_jing]

What's the big deal? I mean, Red5 has already challenged all of our mothers, on the main board. (Sorry Red!) :D :D :D :D

-FJ

[red5angel]

LOL! at fa-jing!:D

[Sihing73]

Hi Red,

Again, I understand where you are coming from and I can appreciate your zeal. While I doubt I can make it out for this event, first of all I just resumed working again, second I am still far from 100% so it would hardly be fair for me to "show off" :D , third a little short on notice, I will be visiting with some of Kens students near the end of this month. I am sure that it will be a gratifying experience. Also, my Sifu has always had good things to say about Ken. Actually if you look at it we are all of the Leung Shun lineage, although my approach is likely to be a bit radical and different in comparison.

I wish you luck with this event and I would like to extend an "Invitation" for you, and anyone else interested, to visit me in Philly or attend the next Gathering in NYC in July. I promise a time of fellowship with no hidden agenda. Of course I will be using subliminal techniques to bring you all to my way, which of course is the One True Way :p LOL!!!!

Take care and train well.

Peace,

Dave

[red5angel]

No problem Dave, good luck with the Kenneth Chung guys! I would love to go to NYC this year but I have dedicated myself to training for a few years which means I wont be doing many on the side trips, but you guys keep it up and I will be out there to show you what its all about in a few years ;)

[fantom]

I believe you should be able to trian and learn from all people, some more than others,
But hypothetically - if someone came along whose wing chun was better than Carl's, what would happen, what would you and Carl do?

This is not a personal challenge - just a hypothetical!

PS: What is the cost of the seminar?

[anerlich]

All of you can come see our school anytime.

No, you can't stay at my place, I won't pick up and deliver, and you can pay your own **** way.

www.combatcentres.com

[red5angel]

Wujidude - I talked to Carl and this is what he said about the taichi and wingchun:
He wants it clarified that Ken Chung is still his Sifu, so he is not Master Chens indoor disciple. He was introduced to Master Chen by Ken Chung. He does Yi Lu everyday, sounds like he does it for a little less then 2 hours and tries to workout total for 4 a day, the rest of the time it sounds like he does wingchun. I was incorrect in saying he went every year, he would like to but he does not.
Basically he told me it has made him more substantial in terms of his root, his sensitivty and his body structure. The man likes Tai Chi and He feels it helps him enough to make it worth practicing side by side with hiw wing chun.
For me, the small amount I do for warm ups has helped me out immensely!

Fantom - We can probably learn something from everyone, but for some those things we learn are how not to do something, or what is the wrong way ;) As for the better person, Well Carl has said that if someone better came along he would be willing to learn what it is they have brought to the table. He deals a lot with people who have thrown out thier training to learn with him, empty thier cups to start over and learn it the right way, so he understands this. Its another reason why I know its the good stuff, almost everyone I know that trains under him has given up years of training in other wingchun, or other martial arts to learn his and Kens way. no problem on the 'personal challenge'! I dont mind being challenged at all, its why I am learning from Carl! ;) I will PM you with the details

Anerlich, in a few years I may visit the great continent of Australia, if so I will definitely stop by!

[wujidude]

Thanks, Redangel. It seems like good taijiquan would offer benefits in rooting and relaxation which could transfer over to wing chun practice. Good luck with the seminar.

[red5angel]

Thanks Wujidude, I think that is the idea! I will definitely enjoy the seminar!

[Shadowboxer]

FWIW - My sifu teaches/studies Tai Chi as well as WC. I don't recall who taught it to him at the moment. He also teaches 7*Praying Mantis under Sifu Lai. But, I've never asked him in what order he learned these systems or why he stayed with these particular 3.

[Chum Kil]

red5angel,

"Right now your confident the wing chun you are learning is the good stuff right? I was too and I wouldnt be here right now if I didnt know in my gut that this is the real deal."

Real Deal Indeed, maybe to you, but that's OK. Don't tell people that what their doing is not the real deal or it's true Yip Man Wing Chun you will not make too many friends. This is why we have in Wing Chun so many problems. Let people find out for themselves if the Wing Chun there doing sucks (from experience).

"I am not interested in getting into an argument about what is better, what is spamming, what is right or wrong. I am saying if you want to find out, then here is your chance. Check your ego at the door and you will learn something!"

Then why would you put up this challenge. It is you who should check your ego at the door and learn something. There are many Wing Chun schools out their. Do you have any experience in the different lineages? If so great. If not how do you know what is going on there? Did you read some book or seen some video or did you just hear about them from someone. I believe most of them have something to offer. If it fits you as a person then check it out, if not move on. For what it's worth my Sifu studied with Bradford Louie back in the early 80's (a student of Kenneth Chung) and left because he felt it was not practical enough. Does this make that lineage bad, no just different. I think you should get out more often, or keep your opinions to yourself. It's because of stuff like this I believe Wing Chun lineages cannot get along. Hey, I could say all kinds of great stuff about my Sifu, but I don't, you would have to find out for yourself. I usually don't answer posts like this, but you touched a nerve.

[red5angel]

John - The exact purpose of this "challenge" is to invite you to see what you think. You dont have to agree with me. If you come and you see and experience and you still feel like you got it, so be it. But I can guarentee you will walk away with new insights. As for the real deal, I am not worry about what real Yip Man wingchun is. Too many out there claiming that title. I do know that what Carl teaches is good, real good.
I have had experience with other lineages. I have seen Carls pitted against another I thought was very good. It couldnt stand up.

"I think you should get out more often, or keep your opinions to yourself. "

What I dont get is why do people use this statement when they are offended? Especially on an internet forum where we are here to share opinions? You dont have to like what I say or type, you dont even have to read it really. If you do, I dont mind discussing it with you.
As for seeing for yourself? That was the point of this thread, inviting you to see for yourself. I am inviting people to come and see what we are all about, what Carl has to offer and determine for yourself if it is for you or not. Carl is tough and he is an exacting teacher. He makes us work, hard. Just when you think you are doing it well, he shows you how to do it better. he strives for perfection, and although it is unattainable there is nothing wrong with reaching for your full potential. I put this out to give you a chance to see it for yourself.
I will be the first to admit what he has to offer isnt for everyone. A lot of wingchun out there is lazy, like mcdojo karate, its not hard to do, and you dont really have to work at it. Alot of people lack precision and root. Everyone says they have it but very few really do. I said this on another thread and I will say it here. You cant say it in a nice soft way that some people just suck. Its just not possible. As far as I am concerned everyone should always be looking for better ways to increase thier skill. If you are backyard practitioner, dutifully going to classes and practicing at home periodically then maybe what Carl has to offer isnt for you, but you wont know until you try.
I for one was one of those people until I met him and saw his stuff. Just showing up for class, practicing at home maybe 30 minutes or an hour a day. Then I saw what it COULD be and I got excited. I realized I could push myself to my full potential. This stuff is the way to do it.
Regardless, whether we agree or not, no reason to try to be offensive. I am not, believe it or not. I think if you want to check it out you should, come prove me wrong if you want. I say come to see what it is about thats all. you get to walk away making a decision for yourself so what can it hurt really?

[reneritchie]

r5a - I was lucky enough to visit Ken Chung and spend time in his class. Do I still need to visit Dechiara sifu to become enlightened? Should the direct students of Chung sifu drop him and switch over to your sifu? Or are they okay where they are? What about Leung Sheung's other students in HK? What about Chung sifu?

And are you sure you're enlightened? Have you gone to visit all the other sifu out there? Have you "touched hands" with Tsui Sheung-Tin, or have you gone in search of Fung Chun, Sum Nung, Way Yan, the Cho, etc.? What if you find a better one next month, will you be back here insisting we all drop everything and go visit him? And what if you meet an even better one the month after that? How do you know which mountain is the highest, if you're near the bottom still and can't see above the clouds?

And what does "touching hands" matter when there's one teacher and a million students? Or do you mean this to be an "open challenge" where top notch WCK people from around the world come for a chance to defeat your sifu? If the former, its a fraud. Most teachers, regardless of lineage, can "touch hands" and come off well if not miraculous against most students. Heck, Rick Spain (William Cheung) and Emin Boztepe (Leung Ting) could kick my butt, and likely yours, in a milisecond, yet are both very different in approach. If both kicked our butts, who should we then follow? I've had the good fortune of meeting several *really* good WCK sifu (people who have spent almost, if not more than, 50 years honing their art), all different from each other, all the same, all so far beyond me I couldn't begin to imagine. And if the latter, there are some truly spectacular WCK fighters out there, and you should really talk to your sifu before posting a "challenge" on the internet.

The above might come off strange to you. It certainly does to me. I would hazard, however, that its not anyone else that needs check their egocentrism (ego is healthy and everyone should have it, egocentrism, or hubres, not so much ;).

Personally, I'm glad you found something you like and someone you think you can learn from. Those are truly the only things important. As part of a lineage, however, your words have affect beyond you. You put your sifu, Chung sifu, and all the other members of your family (I think I heard some cringe already) on the hot seat when you post the way you do, and that's not fair to them. You're using their names, and yours is the only one you should ethically be using.

I enjoy your posts immensely and think you're a good guy, which is why I'm responding like this. Please do take the time to think and understand this. Its a *very* important part of martial culture.

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

RR - No problem in what you are saying, it makes much sense. I am also believe it or not, aware of how it affects my "family" and have always said I do not speak for anyone but myself, if that isnt clear to anyone reading this thread I apologize, there should be no doubt now.
The bottom of the mountain? Most of us are, even those wh ohave been doing it for gobs of time, and those who have touched many hands.
There are thousands of people I havent touched hands with, and if someone comes along and convinces me thier stuff is better hey, I am all for following what is better. you could view that as mercenary if you want, I dont, its common sense.
You did however miss the point of the "challenge". Its not a come fight someone to see who is better challenge. I could only speak for myself on this. the "challenge" is to come and see what is being offered at the seminar.Chung Sifu is obviously Carls Superior, that is why Carl is learning from him, but Chung Sifu is not coming to Minneapolis, Carl is.
On the subject of Emin Boztepe, he is a prime example of what is bad with wing chun. What he does is a watered down *******ization, an "improvement" he calls it over the stuff that is already offered. Emin himself might be able to kick my butt in no time flat but I would never call what he does wingchun. And that is partially the point, good fighting is only a part of the mix that makes good wingchun, but it is ultimately the goal.
As for Hubris, well, al I said was check your ego at the door, as I do, everytime I enter my classroom. As I would if I entered someone elses school. I only expect the same of others. Some do, some dont.
I understand waht you are saying Renee, atleast I believe I do, and I think part of the problem may be in the understanding of my "challenge". It wasnt a challenge to fight. I could never do that for someone else only myself.
I am speaking from a place where I believe what I am practicing is the right stuff. I would love for everyone else to be a part of it, but I can also say it may not be for everyone.
Anyway, look at it this way if it makes you feel better, I would assume you are practicing what you feel is the best you can find? Me too, al I am offering is a chance to come and see it. then you walk away making your own decisions.

Well, I may come off as a little coarse sometimes. Its not meant to be that way, I am however confident in what I am teaching as I assume most of you are? I hope to in the future travel a bit and get to touch hands with many of you who are willing and able, I look forward to it. At the very least you make friends, right?

[hunt1]

Would you consider Ben Ders son Francis a good example of the WC you study?

[reneritchie]

r5a - Saying you speak for yourself is meaningless. You have to actually speak for yourself. It's kind of like "You're stupid, but I mean that in a good way." The small print doesn't erase the large. "Come and see me." is speaking for yourself. "Come and see my sifu." no matter the framing, is speaking for your sifu. That's an important point that can cause real problems if you don't come to understand it (luckily, we live in a time and place that minimizes the problems, in the old days, things could become downright disasterous).

Most of us are at the bottom of the mountain. That's the point. Hyperbole (which is all this boils down to) is meaningless given that frame of reference. Self serving hyperbole (which is also all this boils down to) is even more meaningless. If you were a 30 year vet under Tsui Sheung-Ting, it would mean more.

I didn't miss the point on your challenge. What you wrote was not for you but for those reading it. What you intend doesn't matter in that sense, only what you communicate, including to those who may be predisposed to "misunderstand" you (see that other infamous "encounter" at a seminar in the 80s). It's what others read (into) this that's important. Martial etiquette evolved, in part, as a formalization of communication to prevent problems or misunderstandings leading to very bad results. This was/is especially true for well meaning students whose good intentions could lead to anything but. Again, we live in a time and place where its not as big a concern, but that doesn't mean it isn't. To many people (some just not nice people, but those are part of your audience), what you wrote could be considered insulting, provocative, and an invitation to confrontation.

On Emin Boztepe, are you speaking from deep, personal, first-hand experience or stories you've been told from others? I've never met the man and only seen small clips of him on video, and would never presume to speak so authoritatively on him. I've exchanged emails, however, with a student of his who seems quite knowledgeable (in physical sciences as well as WCK) and while a little different than what I do, he can explain what and why he does what he does, which is rare enough that it deserves respect (think about that a while - can you really explain beyond "sifu said" why you move the way you move, align the way you align, engage the way you engage...)

On ego, I was just pointing out a possible common miss-use of the term.

And again, "I would never do that for someone else" is a dollar short and a day late. You did, regardless of intentions. You put your sifu at risk. If it wasn't your intent, you should have chosen your words *much* *much* *much* more carefully.

As to "the best I can find", that's a wild goose chase. I practice what my time allows that can improve me in substantial ways and holds up to fairly rigorous checking and testing. My teacher can explain what he does, how he does it, and why and when he does it, which is what I need, and he's a true gentleman, which is what I respect. What if I met better and s/he was half a world away? What if I met better and s/he was a complete @$$hole. What if I met better but somehow I couldn't achieve as good results? What if I met someone who was better at (a) but worse at (b)?

And again, I had the good fortune to meet and touch hands with Ken Chung. So do I still need to come see your sifu?

You don't come off as rough, and I don't mean to lecture. I do take this type of stuff fairly seriously, however, as I've seen some bad consquences at times. If you really think what you write doesn't affect your sifu, your sigung, your family, you *really* need to rethink it.

Confidence is good and important, but in martial arts we temper it with humility. Yin and Yang are two extremes, and WCK, I'm told, favors the center.

And hey, if you really are doing "the best", keep it to yourself or someone might come learn it who ends up mugging you ;)

RR

[Wingman]

It's probably off-topic, but I can't help commenting what reneritchie said.

How do you know which mountain is the highest, if you're near the bottom still and can't see above the clouds?

It reminds me of my teacher who said, "There is always a higher mountain to climb". After climbing to the top of the mountain, you might feel ecstatic. But your ecstasy will be short-lived because you will find out that there are other higher mountains. You might opt to climb down from your mountain and climb that higher mountain.

But how do you know that the mountain you are climbing is the highest if you are still at the bottom? Well, the answer is, "You don't". You have to climb to the top and find it out yourself.

[Michael]

wujidude asked: Has Chen taijiquan improved Carl's Wing Chun?

The short answer is yes. I remember when he talked to me in January about this how excited Carl was in the difference he felt in his wing chun. Chen Taiji shares some similar concepts to wing chun and, under the right tutelage and practice, it can enhance one's skill in other areas.

I don't speak for Carl, so please excuse me if I'm putting words his mouth. It's not that he felt there was anything missing from his wing chun. Hardly. Though there are still things to learn from his teacher, Kenneth Chung, Carl had a unique opportunity to study closely with Master Chen, to whom Ken had introduced him many years before.

Michael

[Joakim Svensson]

Hi all,

For those that are going to the seminar I would like to
give some advice based on the training and seminars
I have had with Carl.

Ask questions! eg What is rooting? Why is it important?
Why don't you practice "speed" punching? Whats the most
important to train at my level? Why does the tan sau
look like that ? How is the Bong sau used? etc etc etc

Try things! For example try to attack in different ways
and see how it works (or not works). Try to get an
explanation what is good or bad in what you tried

Train! And try to touch hands with new people

Get hit! Sounds strange but its quite an experience. Its
a very very big difference to look at it and to feel it
first hand. What Carl teaches is soo much a feeling art
so please try to feel it. For most people it really is
a huge eye opener.

Most of the time you will experience alot of new things
and you wont really learn any new techniques. My experience
is that whatever level you think you are at you will
learn the most by doing more simple things, more basic
drills. The big difference is that you do it with more
precision and a clearer purpose. So take the oportunity
to really clean up your basic drills.

And have fun! I wish I could join!

Best regards
Joakim

www.go.to/wingchun
www.wing-chun.nu

[red5angel]

Hey Joakim, II would like to add one thing to your statement. You mentioned you probably wont learn any techniques from Carl and it strikes me that what we are learning isnt a 'technique' based system. We learn the techniques and how they are applied but we dont concern ourselves with if and or type drilling. Carl really stresses sensitivity in adapting to an attack an dI got the impression you should just feel what is coming and do what is apropriate.

[yuanfen]

wujidude asked: Has Chen taijiquan improved Carl's Wing Chun?

The short answer is yes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------WHY?
The short answer could be yes if the wing chun foundations are incomplete IMO. Chen taiji and wing chun uses quite different principles for structure and motion. Therefore on the long run-
not really. If seriously interested in the distinctions- lets discuss substance and detail of structure and dynamics in taiji and wing chun rather than bore people with the ad nauseam repetitions of how xyz or
zyx or whoever is the best that there is. Lots of folks understandably think that their teacher is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But in discourse on lists really everyone is on their own.Show and share specifics to illustrate your points rather than just loyalty and praise..

[red5angel]

Yuanfen, if you look at my response to Wujidude, you will see Carls brief explanation on how it has helped him and his wingchun.
Ultimately beyond the benefits he recieved from practicing Taichi alongside his wing chun, I think he just enjoys it. I know several peopel who have successfully studied more then one art without mixing them or getting them confused.

[Chum Kil]

red5angel,

"The exact purpose of this "challenge" is to invite you to see what you think. You dont have to agree with me. If you come and you see and experience and you still feel like you got it, so be it. But I can guarentee you will walk away with new insights."

I've been doing Wing Chun for about 6 years, there's no way in hell I think I've got it. I'm always learning something new about the stuff I've already think I know. I will always walk away with new insights regardless if it's with someone who has trained as long as I have or not. That's why I think Wing Chun is so cool.

"Carl is tough and he is an exacting teacher. He makes us work, hard. Just when you think you are doing it well, he shows you how to do it better. he strives for perfection, and although it is unattainable there is nothing wrong with reaching for your full potential."

That being said, I believe most Sifu's expect this. Guess what red5angel you can practice as hard as you want, but chances are against you that you will never be as good as your Sifu. Also there are no guarentees that what ever Wing Chun you are doing will help you in a real life threatening situation. Time will only tell, train hard, train smart.

I hope you don't think Chi Sau is what Wing Chun is all about. It's just another drill that Wing Chun use's that some other Martial Arts don't. Chi Sau is great, but it's not everything Wing Chun has to offer. Once contact has been made, then your Chi Sau skills can come into play.

reneritchie,

I like what you have to say. Keep the peace.

[red5angel]

Chum Kil said - "That being said, I believe most Sifu's expect this. Guess what red5angel you can practice as hard as you want, but chances are against you that you will never be as good as your Sifu. Also there are no guarentees that what ever Wing Chun you are doing will help you in a real life threatening situation. Time will only tell, train hard, train smart. "

Chum Kil, I must ask why you believe that one probably wont get to the level of thier sifu, or surpass them? I do believe that I can at some point, if I work hard enough, my goal is this regardless, not just to be better but to strive for that excellence for which my instructos represent.
As for real life threatening situation, in most cases violent conflicts are hard to deal with martial arts training or not. Most of the time, it can come in handy in a bar brawl, or at a party, or a unique situation or two. In general if you get jumped by a random person in the street, chances are there are multiples of them and they have done this before, or they have guns. In this case it is better to give what you have or run like hell. I do wing chun for alot more reasons then just self defense because fighting as self defense should be your last line of defense.

"I hope you don't think Chi Sau is what Wing Chun is all about. It's just another drill that Wing Chun use's that some other Martial Arts don't. Chi Sau is great, but it's not everything Wing Chun has to offer. Once contact has been made, then your Chi Sau skills can come into play. "

Of course not, wing chun is made up of many things, chi sau is a drill. some schools and people overstress this or sparring but I have always been told that sometimes you must return to the beginning, like dan chi sau and simple rooting excersises. I take this to mean that chi sau isnt the goal and isnt the end all to be all. its just another step in my wingchun development.

[dezhen2001]

If your teacher enjoys doing Chen and finds some benefit from it, then that's great! :) Even if he adds some of those elements to his Wing Chun teaching :) Chen Taijiquan from the little i have seen from my own Sifu seems to be a very profound system, just like Wing Chun. Of course theres more than one way to do things, so many others may do different things to develop the skill (such as just training WC ;))

But i would just say that there are many people in the WC world who have put the time in and really developed a great understanding of the skill. Most of what you have said sounds like a general training session with a good teacher. No need to say 'the Real thing', 'challenge', or whatever - that just makes Politics rear it's ugly head...we all know how ugly it is :p

just my thoughts,
david

[red5angel]

I think that mixing arts is sometimes a bad idea. Its rare that someone really comes up with an innovation. Normally it seems they are just covering a gap in thier knowledge, maybe out of convenience because it is easier just to go to a guy locally and get some instruction on another art then do some long distance travelling to find the answers?
You are correct, there are many ways to do things, but for instance, if you had to hammer a nail, you could use a screwdriver handle to pound it in but woudnt it be easier to use a hammer?

[Michael]

In my reply to wujidude who asked: Has Chen taijiquan improved Carl's Wing Chun?

I said, "The short answer is yes. "

yuanfen responds: WHY? The short answer could be yes if the wing chun foundations are incomplete IMO.

To the casual observer I could see how this might be the assumption. The irony of this is that we're talking about Carl. The number one thing Carl drills into his students is proper development of foundation skills matters above all else. Until his students acquire some rudimentary mastery of those skills they do not progress. He, himself, has an excellent mastery of those foundation skills, let me tell you, having been on the receiving end of them. Can he do better? Sure. His skill level is way above mine but the whole point of his doing the Chen taiji is that he saw it positively affecting his wing chun. If you were to ask me what specifically, I'd say it's in his ability to amplify his power. The way we train already has a large "internal" component. Chen allowed him to tap into another part of that.

Peace,

Michael

[yuanfen]

Interestingly- your sigung who has been exposed to taiji
has said that he just does wing chun. And he has power enough without taiji.
Right David?

[churn-ging]

chum kil said - "That being said, I believe most Sifu's expect this. Guess what red5angel you can practice as hard as you want, but chances are against you that you will never be as good as your Sifu. Also there are no guarentees that what ever Wing Chun you are doing will help you in a real life threatening situation. Time will only tell, train hard, train smart."

r5 said - "Chum Kil, I must ask why you believe that one probably wont get to the level of thier sifu, or surpass them? I do believe that I can at some point, if I work hard enough, my goal is this regardless, not just to be better but to strive for that excellence for which my instructos represent."

I think that what chum kil means is that the only way for you to reach the level of your sifu or even to surpass him is if your own sifu has stopped training in wing chun. Even though you train hard in your wing chun your sifu will be training hard at it also. Plus with all the years of training that he has already put into it, I think that the only way for you to reach his level or surpass him is if he stops training, or god forbid, he passes away.

[red5angel]

Well, this is a good point, BUT, I say that the learning curve tapers off so a lot of factors play into who is good and who isnt. If you have a good instructor and you have potential, you can be good as well. If you have a bad teacher and are good its anyones guess. I guess where I am coming from is, all things being equal..........

[[Censored]]

On the subject of ___, he is a prime example of what is bad with wing chun. What he does is a watered down *******ization, an "improvement" he calls it over the stuff that is already offered. ___ himself might be able to kick my butt in no time flat but I would never call what he does wingchun.

Bottom line is, if YOU are not able and willing to beat him, YOU are not qualified to criticize him or his method, nor are you qualified to repeat anyone else's criticism of him in public.

When you post here, you are representing not only yourself, but everyone in your WC family. You cannot disclaim your association nor your responsibility. So please don't sign anyone else up for a fight. :)

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Red I must caution you on some of your statements. You mentioned someone specifically by name and this is kind of a no-no. Let's not bring personal differences into this already rocky road. The person you mentioned is considered by many to be a highly skilled exponent of what HE understands Wing Chun to be.

Given the fact that there are many variances in Yip Mans students alone I think it is sometimes laughable for any of us to try and determine what Wing Chun is or is not. Wing Chun is a highly personal art based on concepts rather than techniques. The original founders were reputed to have distilled several systems into one. Thus our art is an ecletic one from the start. History of many martial arts will find many of the great masters having studied and trained in several different martial arts and then incorporating what they found useful into their own personal approach. Perhaps the sign of a true master is one who can make the art work for them in just about any situation and can also pass on this knowledge to his/her students.

IMHO the goal of any Sifu is to have his students surpass them in ability and understanding of the art. Given the personal nature of the art I do believe that one will tailor things to suit their own needs and circumstances. In this way the art is no longer stagnent but will grow and expand. Keeping it fresh and applicable to todays needs just as it was 100 years ago. To ignore the need to evolve or adapt is to, IMHO, condemn the art to decay.

The founders of the art of Wing Chun wanted a combat effective method easily trained. They distilled it from what they felt was needed at the time. I highly doubt that if they were here today they would ignore something which worked just because it was not "Wing Chun". I think that they would instead take what they felt was useful and mold it to the concepts of Wing Chun thus creating an effective method which still follows the basic concepts of the original founders. But hey, this is just my opinion no need to agree with me.

Bottom line is I intend to go home at the end of the day. If something will make that more likely then I will consider it.

Peace,

Dave

[red5angel]

Sorry about that Dave, I am usually pretty good about not putting names in but I slipped there. Anyway, I sincerely apologize!

Sihing73 said - "I think that they would instead take what they felt was useful and mold it to the concepts of Wing Chun thus creating an effective method which still follows the basic concepts of the original founders. "

I think this is the key here Dave. I think it has to lie within the concepts of wingchun before you can add it, for it to be wing chun. The system is well thought out and has been tested for a while, in real situations. That means that making changes or adjustments can be dangerous. There are too many people out there trying to change the system and this can also be unhealthy for an art. All arts adapt and evolve, but sometimes its not in the interest of the art that it is changed....and change is not always good

[Sihing73]

Hi Red5Angel,

No problem we all make slips from time to time. But, as I am sure you could tell from some of the responses, a slip can cause numerious problems. IMO it is often best to avoid such "problems" when one can.

As to the idea of change I will say that change for changes sake is certainly not good. However, change in order to suite the specific needs or environment can be of great benefit. I am sure that one would need to adjust ones fighting strategy depending on the environment. For example you would need to modify your approach if fighting in the jungle, a snowstorm or on a parking lot filled with broken bottles and glass or on a sandy beach. While many of the core concepts would remain the same the application of some of the "techniques" would need to be adjusted according to the surroundings.

I also believe that nothing exists in a vacum. For example, some of the members on this board have made reference to growing up in places where wrestling is commonplace. Most of the residents of these types of areas have at least some familiarity with wrestling and some of its concepts. Now, one moves away and decides to study Wing Chun. Won't some of that past experieince carry over into their own personal incarnation of Wing Chun?? In other words we all have personal experiences and bring this to the table in our training.

FWIW I have studied Wing Chun for a little while now. In addition prior to learning Wing Chun I had obtained my Black Belt in Judo. I also study the Pekiti Tirsia system of Kali. I have been friends with a very high ranking Kali Guru for over ten years now. We have exchanged training methods during the course of that time. While he and I may play the sticks together you can see a definite difference in how we actually do things. I strive to play the sticks from the concepts of Wing Chun. Or course, it does not hurt that many of the "concepts" between these two arts are very similiar.

However let me make one thing very clear; the more I learn about Wing Chun the more I find that has everything I may need. In other words while I may benefit from learning another art I am not saying that it is necessary to fill any gaps in my Wing Chun. Wing Chun contains throws and Chin Na which should be sufficient to deal with the majority of problems you will face. Still, if you are in a wrestling area and will likely be taken to the ground then it is wise to at least have a passing knowledge of wrestling in order to better understand the concept of the enemy. Thus you will be better able to defend against their attack. As Sun Tzu (check my spelling) said "Know your enemy".

But, if YOUR Wing Chun does not have what you need then explore other arts and incorporate them into your art. Remember our art is one of concepts and you should be free to explore not be limited to a set pattern. A good book which will go far to explaining my approach is "LIVING THE MARTIAL WAY" by Forrest Morgan (again check my spelling of the authors name). I agree with his concept.

1) Gain a strong foundation in your chosen art.
2) Incorporate things you like from other arts, but build them on the framework of your chosen foundation.

Again as I said before; I intend to Win and go home each and every night. If something will enable me to stack the odds in my favour then I will explore it.

Peace,

Dave

[byond]

what is "good" is a very individual conclusion. someone may seem "good" when they chi sao with only "student level' practitioners. but are they" good" when chi saoing with some one of the same calibur??
red...if you went to 5 differant schools and at each school the sifu was better than you...how would you make a discision about what school to stay at?? sounds like chasing a ghost to me
just because someone has better chi sao then me doesnt make me want to forsake my sifu and my school. it makes me want to train harder in my families style. and of course these are learning experiances. which is the point of chi sao...to learn
carl should publicaly challenge all sifu to come touch hands if he has something to prove about his skill level or if he wants to attract students. but are we talking chi sao here or are we talking fighting??? i know people with better chi sao than me but who cant fight at all using what they do in the context of chi sao. in fact ive seen alot of wc people who make things work in chi sao but cant make any of it work when we spar.
take for example leung sheung...he fought with his wing chun...he fought for yip man....the way he taught was based on fighting....same for wsl....these guys were impresive..they had good chi sao and they could fight...i certainly dont want to learn from a theory wc guy....so i make my choices based on numerous attributes...chi sao skills being one of them...the ability to communicate is important....fighting skill is important.....someone who knows the internal aspects of wc....i want a well rounded sifu.:D

[red5angel]

Dave, I agree with the majority of what you say except these -

"I am sure that one would need to adjust ones fighting strategy depending on the environment. For example you would need to modify your approach if fighting in the jungle, a snowstorm or on a parking lot filled with broken bottles and glass or on a sandy beach. While many of the core concepts would remain the same the application of some of the "techniques" would need to be adjusted according to the surroundings. "

This I believe is not a matter of changing the art, unless of course you ONLY fight in one of these territories or environments. The idea is adaptability and the mistake is trying to adapt a system when you should be working on adapting your approach. If I am fighting on a parking lot of broken glass then I dont want to go to the ground, so I dont tackle the guy, this doesn't recquire a change in strategy so much as tactics. this to me is adaptability of the individual and not the system.


"But, if YOUR Wing Chun does not have what you need then explore other arts and incorporate them into your art. Remember our art is one of concepts and you should be free to explore not be limited to a set pattern"

I think if your art doesnt have what it takes to cover all of your bases why bother unless you have an aesthetic interest? For example, if I wanted to study for sport then I would go to a sport type art. If I wanted to graple, I would go to a grappling art. If I wanted to perform I would go to performance type arts. If I wanted to defend myself I would choose an art that covers those bases. For me wing chun is the complete deal, and I dont need anything else. If your art doesnt cover atleast most o fthe possibilities when fighting (obviously most arts dont practice fighting in a swarm of insects while being attacked by dogs and jumped by martians, specifics aside most environments can be generalized for self defense purposes since fights tend to work ion a 'micro' scale instead of macro.) then maybe you should look at something else or look to other practitioners of the art for what you are missing?

[planetwc]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Interestingly- your sigung who has been exposed to taiji
has said that he just does wing chun. And he has power enough without taiji.
Right David?

Joy,

That is correct. Ken Chung does not practice Taiji or yi quan, nor does he include any elements of it in our training. That said, he does appreciate their approach to sensitivity and power generation. It is however different from how we do things in Wing Chun.

And yes, Ken has more than enough power generation abilities without having to utilize any concepts or techniques from Taiji. Of course that doesn't preclude folks from trying to say that he does teach "Taiji flavored wing chun" or some such other nonsense.

If the fools who made such comments had any understanding of what Taiji training and body mechanics are like in comparision to Wing Chun, they would not be making such ill informed statements. :rolleyes:

That said, Carl, while a student of Ken's in Wing Chun, has studies other arts as well, such as Chen Taiji and Fu Family arts. That is his perogative to do so, there are no restrictions on students within our schools in terms of crosstraining etc. Some schools/lineages may frown on it, and others have a long history of cross training. How Carl may train his students is different then in some respects due to addition of Chen Drills etc. I don't think that translates into doing their Wing Chun differently--in that I don't think you'll see cloud hands instead of a bong sau in their application in the sets or in chi-sao.

I think Taiji and Wing Chun take two very different paths up the mountain of martial skill. The body mechanics are different, the postures are different and the use of the dan tien is certainly different.

I think however, they are both about establishing a stable platform or "root" and about using linkages within the body for whole body power. I would think the approaches would be different, but perhpaps the "feeling" of connection may be similar.

As I've never done Taiji or taiji drills (other than once at a Sigman seminar and a Chen Qing Zhou Seminar), but I've felt taiji energy from touching hands and observed videos, it is hard to state definitavely. But if it helps someone to gain whole body connection, then that I think is a good thing.

I've wondered for instance (and off topic), if Yoga would be a good thing to improve one's overall mind body connection. The important thing is to GET the connection and linkage and work on improving and maintaining it within the framework of Wing Chun Kuen. If training something else can get you to that "a-ha" point, then I think that's a good thing, if it moves you forward on your path in Wing Chun.

I'll leave it to Carl's students to discuss their training approach with him and the reasonings behind it. I can only speak from the perspective of studying with both Ken Chung and with Ben Der.

regards,

David Williams

[planetwc]

Originally posted by hunt1
Would you consider Ben Ders son Francis a good example of the WC you study?

Hunt1,

I seriously doubt red5 has met Lawrence, Francis, or Wally or had much interaction with Ben's San Jose school.

1. Francis is up in San Francisco last I heard and it's been about a year or more since I've seen him. I think he may have a very very small Wing Chun working group these days, but I haven't kept in touch with him, since he went off to business school. He is a REALLY REALLY nice guy and hopefully I'll run into him again soon.

2. Francis has not attended any of the SF based WC Camps that I'm aware of, unless he was there this year.

3. Francis doesn't attend Ken's school or his father's in San Jose.

Therefore, red5 has no foundation upon which to make a comparison between himself, Carl, Ben, Ken and Francis.

[hunt1]

I agree Francis seemed like a very nice guy when we touched hands.He was a gentleman when we rolled and I enjoyed his WC.I asked because he is the only person from the Ken Chung Line I have rolled with,at least to my knowledge.


I am just trying to get a handle on what red5 is so gaga over.Francis is the only point of reference I have.
All I know about Carl stems from the incident at the Great lakes Tourney a few years ago and since I wasnt there its all just hearsay.

[kungfu cowboy]

I heard about that. Involved evil clowns. Very scary.

[yuanfen]

Why scary?

[kungfu cowboy]

The clowns, (who I believe were out of work rodeo clowns) were, well, evil.

[Chris99]

Hi Byond,


>[QUOTE]Originally posted by byond
>[B]what is "good" is a very individual conclusion. someone may seem "good" when they chi sao with only "student level' >practitioners. but are they" good" when chi saoing with some >one of the same calibur??

You touched my Sifu's hands...so what is it you are trying to say here?

> red...if you went to 5 differant schools and at each school the >sifu was better than you...how would you make a discision >about what school to stay at?? sounds like chasing a ghost to >me

You seem to have been to a lot of schools looking for a teacher. Are you chasing the ghost?

>just because someone has better chi sao then me doesnt make >me want to forsake my sifu and my school. it makes me want to >train harder in my families style. and of course these are >learning experiances. which is the point of chi sao...to learn

Who is your teacher then? For a while I thought you were going to join our school. I didn't know that you had a current teacher.

>carl should publicaly challenge all sifu to come touch hands if >he has something to prove about his skill level or if he wants to >attract students. but are we talking chi sao here or are we >talking fighting??? i know people with better chi sao than me >but who cant fight at all using what they do in the context of chi >sao. in fact ive seen alot of wc people who make things work in >chi sao but cant make any of it work when we spar.

Carl has nothing to prove to you or anyone else for that matter. We welcome all to come and train. You touched his hands, are you saying that in a straight up sparring session there would be a different result? I took it extremely easy on you when you came to our school to visit and thought you understood the reality before you...if you think differently please come back for a refresher course. Chi sau or sparring...you pick.

We were friendly with you when you visited, curious as to what your agenda really is? Perhaps you would be so kind as to reveal your cards....


Chris Snyder

[Chris99]

Hunt 1,

I'd be curious as to what you think you know about the Great Lakes Tourney a few years ago? I was the student involved and from what I have heard there is a lot of "BS" floating around in cyberspace. I would be happy to enlighten you on the actual events. The truth has a way of becoming distorted with each new telling...in fact in this case straight out lies are being told apparently.


Happy to inform,
Chris Snyder


Originally posted by hunt1
[ I am just trying to get a handle on what red5 is so gaga over.Francis is the only point of reference I have.
All I know about Carl stems from the incident at the Great lakes Tourney a few years ago and since I wasnt there its all just hearsay. [/B]

[hunt1]

Since I made no mention what so ever of what I heard how would you possibly know if what I was told was true or not?

I was told about it by several of Johns people,many WC people and a judge who all saw it first hand. I am sure you have your perception of events just like those not directly involved had theirs.No matter what version the result was embarrassing for WC and totally uncalled for.

Men acting like 3 year olds is not something worth discussing on a public forum.

And one more time how do you what I heard is a lie since I have not mentioned what I heard?

[red5angel]

Hunt 1 - I have never met Francis, or for Planetwc sake, Wally or Lawrence.

"Therefore, red5 has no foundation upon which to make a comparison between himself, Carl, Ben, Ken and Francis."

Hmmmmm, not sure what the point of this comment is but its inaccurate and an incorrect assumption. I would appreciate it if you did not make specific judgements on who I am or what I have or have not done. I have tried to do the same here although there was one slip, and I apologized for it.

I think its funny that while most of you propose some sort of wingchun peace, some sort of family reckoning, that we all be nice, behave and be friendly, many are so quick to jump to conclusions, make assumptions and then voice them without clarifying the facts.
The point of this thread was to let you know you have a chance to come to a seminar in the midwest, which are generally few and far between, and to experience something some of you may not have before. Instead many of you have fallen on old patterns, some of you are doing what I was recently accused of doing on a thread and berated for. Many of you while pointing the finger are guilty of exactly the same things you are hammering on about. Do any of you find that a little odd? While my opinions may be strong, I am confident in my beliefs, you do not see me making accusations, and assumptions that I am not willing to back up or prove to you. If you have absolutely any questions about where I have been, what I have done, who I have met, how much I know, please feel free to email me personally, or stop by my house if it is convenient with you. I already am talking to no less then three people on this forum about getting together soon to touch hands, talk a little and exchange ideas. At the moment all of my time energy and money is being put into training but in the future I will be more then happy to do a little travelling a few times a year to meet with anyone who wants to get together for a day or even two to touch hands, spar, talk, or whatever they feel is necessary to get to know me.
What I see here are a few people using the safety of the internet to pretend to be a lot of what they are not. I have always put all my cards on the table, and I always will. Try not to make it a habit to assume with me because in the past it has almost always been wrong.
As for the seminar, feel free to come in and check it out.

[Chris99]

Hunt 1,

Paranoid...no I don't think so. That is interesting about John's people--they told me they didn't see the whole thing. The "judge" you refer to wasn't even near us when it took place. Nobody was in earshot except the two of us that were involved. Sucker punching someone when you are a Referee at a tourney is embarrassing...that is why he and his whole group left early and haven't been back since.

Everyone who has ever told me what they heard about this incident has always had the facts wrong.

"Men acting like three year olds", I was attacked without warning so perhaps you might want to change the plural here. People are saying I attacked first after insulting his sigung...absolute fabrication--on both accounts. Don't bring it up if you want to close your ears. Plenty of people have told me what they heard I said and did, always they have it wrong.

Dude admitted to striking first...or didn't you hear that part. He approached me...not the other way around. I have yet to hear the truth being told by anyone relating the story to me.

Chris Snyder

PS. How do I know your facts are tainted...just a guess because I have yet hear the truth repeated back to me. I spoke with some of John's students who were about 20 feet away...they didn't see it start so how could they accurately tell you what happened from start to finish?





Originally posted by hunt1
Since I made no mention what so ever of what I heard how would you possibly know if what I was told was true or not?

I was told about it by several of Johns people,many WC people and a judge who all saw it first hand. I am sure you have your perception of events just like those not directly involved had theirs.No matter what version the result was embarrassing for WC and totally uncalled for.

Men acting like 3 year olds is not something worth discussing on a public forum.

And one more time how do you what I heard is a lie since I have not mentioned what I heard?

[sunkuen]

When you got popped, did the guy have a good root!!! Was the crowd "rooting" for him or were they "rooting" for you? What "root" did the guy take when he split? Maybe insulting someones sigung is the true "ROOT" of all evil!!! Did the sucker punch upROOT you? One lie I heard was that you called the guys sigung a fROOT loop!!!:D

[yuanfen]

I gather that it was not wing chun's finest hour- as judging goes?

[yuanfen]

Rooting isnt always fun? Except in aussie land?

[hunt1]

You have no idea what I heard you dont know who I heard it from yet you have the need to defend yourself?Yes I would say paraniod or guilty of poor behavior.Only one judge at the tourny?You talked to all of Johns students and assistants?ROFLMAO


Your story is you were just minding your own business and someone threw a punch at you for no reason at all?Is that your story?So you didnt lose a chi sau match and got all ****y?
Sorry dude I stick with men acting like 3 year olds.

[hunt1]

yuanfen I dont think it was a judging problem in so far as the judges were very impartial and didnt give a rats behind about which WC guy won a match.

The issue was Phil Nearing was looking for an impartial way to have the competion judged.In previous competions the same judges always judged and some felt they were biased. Phil had run the WC event at the tourny since they started including WC and had gotten several complaints in past years. Some people were not happy with the use of the san sau judges.Funny how the people that did well had no complaints. Bottem line is you can never please everyone and chi sao should not be the basis for competion.

Oh yeah and if your WC is good it doesnt matter what the rules are.

[yuanfen]

Hunt1. Thanks for the memoery jogger.

[Chris99]

Hey Hunt 1,

At the time of the incident I had only been in WC for about 3 1/2 months. I was recovering from major reconstructive elbow surgery (I had a 108 stitches in my arm and could only lift 4lbs). I was at the tourney as a spectator only. I didn't even know Pak Sau at the time and didn't begin Chi Sau for another year...so much for what you think happened. Phil Nearing approached me, not the other way around. People are saying I referred to his sigung in a most unflattering way...I didn't even know who his sigung was until he told me (being a 3 month student in WC). The name meant nothing to me as I didn't even know what his sigung looked like (hadn't even seen a picture at that time).

How Nearing chose to have the event judged wasn't my concern because it was the first WC tourney event I had ever seen. As I said before, I didn't even know Chi Sau at the time and was a spectator only (didn't even wear a school shirt). So much for what you think was the cause for the incident.

I did talk to John's two students (assistants both) who were closest to the scene and they didn't see it start. John personally asked all of his students to come forth if they witnessed the entire event from start to finish...not one person said they saw it from start to finish. This comes straight from John--ask him if you doubt it. I didn't compete so how could I have gotten ****y from losing a match? I was minding my own business until Nearing approached me and engaged me in conversation. He started the curse words first...not me. He swung first (he admitted it to the campus security guards in front of John for I was standing next to John when he said it). So much for what you think you know!

If you don't want to hear about it don't bring it up and certainly don't state reasons for the incident if you weren't even there.

Chris Snyder

[hunt1]

Chriss I stand corrected.why you were singled out when it was some one from the competion that was causing the problems was an honest mistake I am sure.As I said in my first post all I know about Carl is hearsay and hence something I dont put much weight too.As far as what happened I never heard your name until these posts.Never heard any names mentioned other than Carl and Phil.It sounds like what ever the cause you got the tail end,must have been a shock.What I heard was that one of Carls students in the event got upset with the judging and the complaining began.It got very heated and someone snappeed. Sorry for the slight.

[yuanfen]

Which John was that?

Dont worry- I have seen wc competitions- where big names
were not exemplary in their behavior. No names.

[Chris99]

Hi Hunt 1,

No problem at all. Yes, it was a total shock at the time. I was sitting next to my teacher through the whole thing and it happened when I went to the bathroom by myself. Nearing came in behind and started a conversation. No big deal, I left the restroom and walked back into the gym. There was an event taking place directly in front of me so I stopped to watch it. Nearing came back in the gym at that time and came up along side of me and restarted the conversation. It was bizarre to say the least because before I knew it he was trying to get me to come to his school in Chicago and saying maybe I could even meet his sigung and see what real wing chung was like. I said no thanks, I already had a school and my sigung's wing chun was very good. We discussed the competition briefly and I said that I didn't understand the rules being used because one of our students lost when his opponent was constantly stepping back off balance. He asked if the following year I was going to enter the tourney. I said yes next year I will compete in Chi Sau. He then said, "Good because I don't like your f****ing attitude. I turned to him and said, "I didn't ask you what the f**k you liked. He repeated his statement and I said why don't you get the f**k away from me then. That was when he struck. He used what my teacher called a compression hit--he struck simultaneously with his right palm behind my left ear and his left palm to the right side of my face. He then followed up with a right cross to the left side of my face (which knocked my glasses flying and sent my left arm across the right side of my body--pop can flying out of my hand). I had little control over my left arm as that was the arm that I had surgery on--I believe this is the motion that some people have mistakenly perceived to be an attack by me. I staggered backwards and he pursued grabbing the hood on my poncho--he pulled me in with a knee to the face. I partially blocked the knee and then I went in grabbing his waist. I moved him backwards a few feet until I regained my stability and picked him up off the ground. At this point I spun and propelled him into the bleachers on our left. I head butted him as we landed on the bleachers which is why his he had a cut above his right eye. I dragged him down the bleachers and pinned him against the rail--all the while he continued to hit me on the side of the skull (John Ervin told me this afterwards--I didn't feel the hits because I wasn't quite right in the head at the time. The next thing I knew four guys were pulling me off of him and forcing me to the ground. I did manage to regain my feet and turned to go back in--Nearing hadn't moved, this is when my teacher showed up which acted like a cold glass of water on my mental state.

The campus security guards came and began to question me and Nearing in front of my Sifu and John Ervin Jr. who was the tournament holder. This is when he admitted he struck me first and then he tried to say I provoked it by flinching my arms toward him. This is a complete fabrication because such a movement would have been sheer pain due to my reconstructed elbow. At the time I couldn't have consciously flinched my arm--it was nerve realignment surgery coupled with bone spur removal.

I have heard of people disparaging my Sifu by saying that he only became confrontational after the cops showed up (they weren't cops but campus security guards). Look at it from his perspective, he is attending the tourney with a student he has barely known for 3 months. Said student gets into a fight with one of the featured Masters of the tourney. Until the facts came out he reserved his judgement as any sensible person would do. When Nearing said he hit me first is when he began to get angry. The campus guards took down our informantion and Nearing rounded up his students and promptly left the tourney and he hasn't been back since. The campus security guards never filed a report...end of story.

I beleive Nearing thought I was my teacher's prodigy or something when in truth I was a three month student who was 4 1/2 months removed from major reconstructive elbow surgery. I was in no position to fight...let alone take on a WC teacher with 17 years experience. I saw the tourney guide and had read his bio. Dude, I'm 5'9 and 135lbs...trust me, I wouldn't have started a fight with him. Why would I seek to embarrass my Sifu in such a setting, for even then I was very commited to studying with him.

From time to time people will email me and say they heard this or that. Well that is what happened and I am tired of it already.


Just some thoughts,
Chris Snyder

[Chris99]

Yuanfen,

That would be John Ervin Jr. of Wing Lam Kung Fu. He is the one who puts on the tourney every year. My teacher used to teach out of his building on the second floor. That is how I continued to have dialogue with him and his students--they were just downstairs from us at the time.


Regards,
Chris Snyder

[yuanfen]

Thanks for the info.

[anerlich]

Chris,

Interesting story and sorry to hear you got on the wrong end of a bad situation.

Unfortunately, bull**** abounds. When my Sifu split from my (ex)Sigung, a rumour was going around that my Sifu had challenged him, they'd fought, and the Sigung had broken my Sifu's leg. My Sifu was on crutches when the split occurred, but this was because he'd had surgery on his ankle to fix a problem related to a car accident ten years earlier (for which only now the surgicial techs to fix it were available). There was no challenge and the split took place in front of about 50 witnesses, and my Sifu would never have made a challenge at this time or any other, but people still quote this story as if it were gospel.

[hunt1]

Chris.**** thats worse than any story someone could make up and I have no doubt its true.Very sorry to hear you were subjected to that.Glad you werent hurt.Now I am really happy I wasnt there.

[byond]

hey chris,

1)im saying just what i "said"..am i not being clear?? i will reiterate....just because a "sifu" has good chi sao compared to a "student" doesnt mean the sifu is good. when a sifu rolls with a sifu..that is the real proof. red5angle put up the "challenge"..my point is that would prove if carl was good "in the big scheme of things" is if sifu went to try out his hands and not students. he put up the challenge in public..so i commented

2) you only know what i allow you to know. why take advantage of private things i have talked to you about ..that is not "mo duk
....and i have only had 2 offical sifu......i dont consider "2 "many...and since ive moved to these parts ive only been to the vtm and your school.....so what information are you basing your comment on??
i was addessing red.....because of his comments,,,i have talked with red a bit in the past and have been on friendlyterms with him

3)who my teachers in wing chun,life or spiritual are, is my concern. iwant to join your school...you know what personal things i have gone through. and that was the only reason i didnt join....up till carl got mad at me.....i still havnt addressed him because i havnt had thetime since getting back from florida. and i want to devote 100% to the conversation. perhaps he doesnt want to teach me due to my personel opinions...i dont know

4)what im saying is what i said..i think its clear...im glad to hear you took it easy on me..i gave the same curtisy. reread my comment " cant make it work when we spar"....did i spar with you or carl??? no..i didnt...so i wasnt talking about you ...why do you want to look for something that isnt there?? if you want to come give me a refresher cource and you feel like thats what you need to do....carl has my address. and no...i wouldnt want to fight with carl...but like you,if i have to fight..im willing to take it to any level i have to

let me close by reiterating......just because someone has good chi sao..does not mean they can fight....just because someone can fight doesnt mean they have good chi sao....that is all i am saying.
and finally....havnt i always said publicaly how great carls chi sao is?? ive always backed you up because that is my belief. i thought we were friends...i find your tone in your post not friendly
so what are your cards??? my agenda is to be the best wing chun practioner i can be...i also strive for spirtual growth...as well as to over come personal demons....i also have a desire to help preserve the knowledge of yip man kung fu for the future generations and will do everything i can to contribute to that end.
brian scanlon

[Chris99]

Hi Byond,

I misunderstood your intent behind your comments. Carl was not issuing a public challenge. Since Red5 is affiliated with us I thought the direction of your comments to be about Carl and my school specifically since you did indeed visit where I train personally. I offer my apology for this misconception. I did enjoy speaking with you during your visit to our school.

I also agree that just because someone's chi sau skills are good doesn't make them a good fighter or vise versa.

I have no hidden agenda nor do I harbor resentment towards you Brian. Email me offlist and we'll talk further.

Sorry for the misunderstanding,
Chris Snyder

[Grendel]

Hi Red5angel,

Originally posted by red5angel

Hunt 1 - I have never met Francis, or for Planetwc sake, Wally or Lawrence.

"Therefore, red5 has no foundation upon which to make a comparison between himself, Carl, Ben, Ken and Francis."

Hmmmmm, not sure what the point of this comment is but its inaccurate and an incorrect assumption. I would appreciate it if you did not make specific judgements on who I am or what I have or have not done. I have tried to do the same here although there was one slip, and I apologized for it.


You haven’t made just ONE slip. :rolleyes: There is something very wrong in your perceptions if you haven’t seen it. Go back and re-read the kindly and well worded posts from Rene. And note that we are all aware that you have misquoted Planet Wing Chun above.

So, if you claim the previous statements are inaccurate, when have you met and touched hands with Ken or Ben? I don’t want to burst your bubble, but Ken Chung’s and Ben Der’s Wing Chun are orders of magnitude better than Carl's. Carl is a good teacher, but if I were Carl, I would ask you to stop disseminating such offensive pronouncements and “challenges.’’ Surely, you agree that your teacher deserves to be represented in a way that reflects positively on the manner in which he teaches and the example he brings to his students through the way he communicates and lives.

[i] Many of you while pointing the finger are guilty of exactly the same things you are hammering on about. Do any of you find that a little odd?
[/B]

No. Don't you find it odd?

[i] While my opinions may be strong, I am confident in my beliefs, you do not see me making accusations, and assumptions that I am not willing to back up or prove to you. [/B]

Yes we do see you making accusations and assumptions that you cannot prove. Too often. It’s incredible to encounter someone so unable to see themselves as others do.

[i] As for the seminar, feel free to come in and check it out. [/B]

I still don’t understand the nature of this invitation. Is the seminar free to outsiders? Aren’t there any space restrictions? How many can you accommodate, after all?

Your time would be better spent in practice than in arguing with everyone on this forum.

Regards,

Grendel
"It is the teacher's responsibility to show the truth." ---Ken Chung

[Nichiren]

If I were a SiFu and had a student posting challenges in my name I would kick his ass! No offense.... ;)

[yuanfen]

He would not be a student for very long.

[red5angel]

I AM TYPING THIS IN LARGE LETTERS SO THAT ANYONE WHO IS STILL HAVING A PROBLEM UNDERSTANDING CAN TAKE THE TIME TO READ AND UNDERSTAND THIS IS NOT A CHALLENGE TO FIGHT!!!!! THIS WAS ALSO VERY CLEARLY PUT, NOT A CHALLENGE FOR CARL BUT PUT FORTH BY ME AND ME ALONE. IF THERE IS STILL ANY DOUBT AS TO WHAT THIS THREAD IS SUPPOSED TO BE PLEASE FEEL FREE TO EMAIL ME SO I CAN TYPE IN LARGE TYPE AGAIN TO EXPLAIN IT.

Now that that is hopefully clear, Grendel, please dont try to explain to me anything without being in full posession of the facts and actually reading the post before you reply. The misquote from planetwc is a cut and paste, but thank you for playing. Yes I am also aware that Ken is light years beyond Carl, but Carl works hard at trying to attain that level as should we all.
I read Renes post, and am familiar with Rene, he is probably arguably the most intelligent poster on this forum, and I replied to him in a freindly manner explaining my point of view.
If there is any confusion Grendel I would be happy to discuss it, but please dont make a fool out of yourself by trying to make a fool out of me with inaccurate statements on what I have or have not messed up.

[Mr Punch]

I've rarely read such a load of bs.

r5a: nobody was attacking you or your precious sifu/sigung. You posted a ridiculously worded but well-meaning challenge. And then got on the highest horse in town. Some people offered you friendly advice, some not so friendly, and not only was hunt1 not attacking you with his comment about Ben Der, but planetwc was trying to back you up (read their comments again...)

So quit writing IN LARGE LETTERS, you imperious twat.

I'm really happy you have a good sigung and sifu. I'd love to be able to come.

Personally I'd like to train with as many good sifu as I can... not because I'm not satisfied but because it would be a great way to learn.

But I'm starting to think I'm not going to want to train with anyone I've heard of on this forum! And I'm starting to see why my first sifu (who was a good martial artist and a humble man) now lives in relative seclusion, having been estranged by the politics in wc.

Chris, fair play to you for continuing your wc after such a load of crap. (And here's that word that people write in an attempt to undo the bs that they write: I mean it BTW) Peace.

[EnterTheWhip]

Any chance you'll find yourself in Toronto?

[EmptyCup]

should be "returnofthewhip"

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I have been trying to sit back and watch more of late. This thread though seems to have run its course and is just acting to stir up too much potential for negativity. There seems little point to keep it going. Enough has been said already, perhaps too much.

With this in mind I am closing this thread. As always anyone wishing to discuss this is welcome to e-mail me.

Peace,

Dave
sihing73@juno.com