BSL Lyrics: Shaolin #6 (The short strike)

[GeneChing]

Here's one we all should know (all us BSLer's at least) since it's almost always the first of the core ten to be taught. It's also the one that has the most in common with Songshan Shaolin. The monks got very excited and cheered when I demoed this for them because it looks almost exactly like the traditional stuff they do.

TUN DA: SHAOLIN #6 (The short strike)
1. Fast as an arrow, steal the heart.
2. Light steps like the wind through the willow, facing fists.
3. Flower hand, strike to the right.
4. Horse stance, horizontal punch.
5. Golden rooster stands on one leg.
6. Grab the rice, horse stance, hanging elbow technique.
7. Block down and up, striking technique.
8. Leaning the body, waiting for the tiger.
9. Monkey climbs up the tree, double toe kick.
10. Planting technique.
11. Left heel kick, shuffle, right toe kick.
12. Horse stance, striking the tiger technique.
13. Flower hand, back step.
14. Front and back sweep, striking technique.
15. Wild tiger comes out of the cave.
16. Shooting palm, heel kick.
17. Front and back strike, flat pole technique.
18. Turn around, stand on the earth holding the sky technique.
19. Fierce tiger comes out of the mountain to grab the sheep.
20. Right "crossed" character kick.
21. Right lean out punch.
22. Front step, "yin" striking palm.
23. Break the earth, planting technique.
24. Tornado kick.
25. Land in horse stance, striking technique.
26. Hanging punch to the back.
27. Sleeve wiping palm.
28. Grab the hand, horizontal punch.
29. Right "crossed" character kick.
30. Turn around, chain punches.
31. Left diagonal punch.
32. Horse stance, striking the tiger technique.
33. Back step, penetrating palm, finishing form.

[NorthernShaolin]

Gene,

Same techniques but some of the lyrics we have are more traditional lyrics.

#1 Instead of Fast as an arrow, steal the heart; we have Black Tiger Goes Thru the Heart

#2, Instead of Light steps like the wind thru the willow, facing fist, we have Step up, Spread the Wind with Sharp Ox’s Horns (Pair fist for seven stars).

#6 instead of hanging elbow, we have split elbow.

#8 instead of Leaning the body, waiting for the tiger; we have two names-first part is Black Tiger Goes up the Mountain and the second part is called, Drop body like a Crouching Tiger.

#10 Instead of Planting Techniques, we call it Spike the ground, Cut Onions.

#13 For Flower Hand, back step, we use the lyric called White Crane Spreads it Wings

#15 Instead of the word Wild, we have Vicious.

#17 is divided into two lyrics for us; Fall to the ground, front attack as side lifts up and the other lyric after it is Fist strikes, foot kicks (shin kick) the Crouching Tiger

#19 For Fierce, we use the word Vicious and for the word Grab, we use the word Kill.

#22 In the second part of your lyric, we call it Grab the Ghost Palm.

#23 We do not use the term Planting Technique, we use Smash the Bell, Break the Ground.

#31 Instead of Left Diagonal Punch, we use the lyric, Pour the Very Best Wine.

Another side note is that Sun Yu Fung’s disciples also learnt NSL but in their NSL#6, the ending is slightly different in this set. After #29, they perform consecutive punches (Right, Left, Right) then they go to #30. As a result when they perform #31, Pour the Best Wine, they pour it with the right fist rather than the left fist. This is how YSW’s and LTH’s disciples were able to distinguish between KYC’s lineage from SYF’s Lineage.

[David Jamieson]

How did the "striking the tiger" technique get it's name? That pretty interesting.

peace

[GeneChing]

NS: You continue to amaze me with your research. I glad that you have kept track of all these variations and hope that our little exchange here continues to forward your work.

KL: Strike the tiger often refers to Hero Wusong from Outlaws of the Marsh. You might check out our most recent issue - Jul/Aug 2002 - since Wusong is the subject of our cover story. It's often called Hero's pose in Shaolin, after monk Jinnaluo Wang, and considered a signature pose for Shaolin styles, both BSL and Songshan.

[David Jamieson]

just before the heros pose, I was taught to shift from left bow to right bow then horse. The hand techniques are a right inside forearm block and a left inside forearm block which flow into the upward and downward block in horse stance. Is this whole segment called "striking the tiger"?

peace

p.s - it goes without saying I'll be reading the mag :)

[NorthernShaolin]

Kung Lek,

The correct answer is YES.. all three combination of movements are collectively called Striking the Tiger.

[GeneChing]

That's a fat technique too. Lots of application variations and histories.

[David Jamieson]

Gene, when you say "fat" do you mean "buddha"? or do you mean "phat" like in "phat name for a band", etc :D

If the former, any history wth it? In the latter, I agree.
If other please explain.

peace

[GeneChing]

both.

As hero's pose, i's linked to Jinnaluo Wang. As Striking the tiger, it's linked to Wusong. Ironically there's a similiar overlap between these two heros with Yanqingquan. Again, check the latest issue (JulAug) for Wusong...

[templefist]

Sorry to dug up such an old post, but it may be worth it in the end. I just found an old lyric sheet that my sifu gave me on this form. Alot of the names are the same, some not.

#7 is circular striking technique, and we have rising block and punch before lean the body.

#11 we use a right heel kick instead of toe.

#14 we use the term rising block and punch after sweeps

#17 is swing the gate, flat pull slap the floor dust rises

#18 support the sky instead of hold

#25 again we use rising block and punch instead of striking technique

#31 we have knocking hands after the left diagonal strike.

#33 shooting trading palms instead of penetrating


Not too much different, but there ya go. Ill look for the others that I have and compare them to the ones posted.

_Templefist_

[SifuAbel]

Now that that we have the lyrics, lets sing the song and discuss the applications.

[templefist]

I've figured out some good high line/low line stuff from that form. I would have to explain it in person, as I cant really think of a way to type it out correctly.

But yes, there are great applications in that form, as are there great ways to train the body and move it certain ways.

I'm trying to figure out the "striking the tiger" technique right now. Any help?

Templefist

[GeneChing]

Which application should we start with?

[Ravenshaw]

Oh, #6. I could never practice you again and still remember every movement till the day I die.

Warning: long post that might not make much sense to non-BSLers.

I wanted to bring this up just so I could talk a little about the two different versions of the set I've learned. One is from Wing Lam, my first Sifu, though I learned it from some of his students a year or two before he started teaching me personally. Recently, I learned the set again from Lai Hung and his students. It was definitely fun to see the differences and the reasoning behind them. With some of his students, they would show me a few moves the way they do them and then I would show them Wing Lam's version, and we'd talk about it. Very enlightening.

Background info:

I'm going to talk a bit about me so you can see where I'm coming from, so if you're not interested, skip this part.

I started with Wing Lam's school in February 2000, while Gene was head instructor there. I learned from one of WL's students - Jimmy - first before he started teaching me personally around March or April 2002. I left in August 2005 to move to Davis, CA to go to the University here.

When I came, I was aware of Lai Hung and his class on UC Davis' campus, but I didn't get started until maybe two months ago. I spoke with WL about it, and he supported the idea, so I started training with the LH group. I'd also previously asked NS and Gene about their opinions and no one was against it, so I figured it was a good idea.

LH doesn't speak much English, but he was happy to find out I'm a WL student. He is old, but he's very animated and loves to smile. He's a very hands-on teacher, so he still gets his point across even if it's hard to understand his words.

WL's BSL comes through Yen Shang Wo, whereas LH's comes through Lung Tze Hsiang. YSW and LTH were classmates, students of Ku Yu Cheong. If I'm not mistaken, they are the two in this photo (http://www.harmoniousfist.com/images/YangSeungMo3.jpg). YSW on the left, LTH on the right. So WL and LH are fairly closely related in the family tree, but there are some key differences it how they express the sets.

General differences:

Rather than getting into specifics first, I wanted to mention some general differences.

WL is primarily a forms man. He's taught sparring and his chin na is quite good, but he isn't really known as a fighter. Especially at this later point in WL's carreer, he's not too interested in fighting anymore, though he always made a point about key applications that we should work on and proper structure, etc. By contrast, LH is known specifically because he was a fighter. He fought in China as well as internationally in the 50's and 60's. I think this affects his expression of the forms a great deal. Where at the WL school, we keep the shoulder down and the head high while punching in the sets, LH wants me to tuck my chin and raise my shoulder, like a boxer.

Neither one of the men were purely BSL stylists. WL practiced a number of different styles, but his main ones were Hung Gar, Ha Say Fu, BSL, and the big 3 internal styles. I see some overlap, to be sure, but he has a strong understanding about why different styles work for their own reasons. His HG looks nothing like his BSL and vice versa. LH has allowed his styles, being Choy Li Fut and BSL, to blend a little more, and I see it pretty strongly in his expression of the sets. The BSL flows more in comparison to the CLF, but I think that's due to the composition of the set. WL's BSL is lighter, quicker, more relaxed, and more fluid, whereas LH's BSL is more sparring-oriented and "hard." I'm making no negative judgments, because I see the value in each approach and can appreciate them. To me, having two different approaches broadens my concept of the style.

LH adds some movements to the sets. There is a right-left double toe kick at the start of #6 (before lyric #1) that I don't see in anyone else's version. The same kick is at the beginning of his broadsword set. Also, there are several times in which he inserts a tight hooking punch technique into a series a movements. It's similar to the low block & hammer fist/inside block part of lyric #12, but with a hooking punch (or elbow strike) instead of the hammer fist/block. There's one after the double kick (between lyrics #9 and 10), one in the middle of lyric #11, one before lyric #12, and one before lyric #32 when we turn around after the diagonal punch (#31). Also, he teaches to turn around and throw a tiger claw in the cat stance right before the sweep (between #13 and 14). Otherwise, the movements are the same, but done differently.

In his expression of the techniques, LH tends to add in the "hidden" kicks. In any cat or crane stance, it's understood that a kick can be inserted into the application, and they're not expressed in WL's forms as often. In LH's sets, almost every kick implied by the WL version is shown, which I found very interesting and reinforced that part of my understanding.

Some specific differences:

I'm just going to choose a few moves in particular to talk to about. I'll try to explain the differences in the set and then the applications that these different versions imply to me. You all would probably get something different, but that's part of the art. It's really hard to explain the differences without actually showing them, but I'll do my best...

Lyric #1. I think I associate this move with #6 more than any other because it's the opener. In WL's version, it's very explosive. We drop down into cat with a stomp, shooting both hands out in a throat jab, then swinging them back in vertical hook blocks. In LH's version, we jump up in a right-left double kick, landing in left cat, then circle the hands out and in to the waist, then bringing them up in a double upward cross block, palms facing in. The hands then swing out to the sides in crane hands. The main differences here are the double cross block vs. double hand jab and the path of the crane hands. In the WL version, the crane hands swing vertically down and back, whereas the LH crane hands swing out and back. To me, the WL version suggests more aggression (stomp to distract, quick strike, the crane hand could be a pull into a knee or a kick), whereas the LH version is a counter (block high, then counter grab, rather than actively going for it). Just two facets of the same technique. Also, the WL version has the application of parrying a low/body kick and follow with a counter kick, whereas the path of the LH crane hands would not cover that part of the body.

Lyric #12. Other than the aforementioned hook punch addition before this technique, the main difference here is the expression of the pose itself. In WL's set, we slide our right foot back into staggered horse as we turn with a low block and hook punch. The arms are very open, making a semicircle if viewed from above. Our hips are turned as well. LH's expression of this is more 2-D, that is, no staggered horse and the hips remain square. The top hand comes forward first and then pulls back to just in front of the forehead. In WL's, we usually show this as a low block (or pulling down and out) and hook punch. In LH's, I'm thinking it's more of a grab/pull with the high hand and the low hand may actually be the striking arm (elbow to the body and/or slap to the groin maybe).

Lyric #18. In the WL set, we chamber the left hand and high parry to the left with the right palm as we turn, then left high/right low parry to the right. Palms switch high/low positions, then we turn to sqaure as we double push forward. In the LH set, we have a double high/low left forearm block, double high/low right forearm block, "hold the ball" in front of us, then push the right arm up and the left arm down as we throw a left thrust kick and land in left bow. In both cases, the double block can be applied with active footwork to parry a kick and jam the opponent's lead hand. With the LH version, though, it's easier to see the top hand being applied as a strike - specifically a chop or hammer fist - after a low outside parry or after sweeping an arm out of the way with the low hand. The double forward push vs. the high/low push and kick is a little harder to decipher. In the WL version, I figured one hand pushed down and forward to jam an arm while the other hand attacks high. At a greater distance though, one could apply the LH version as a high or low block and simultaneous kick.

These are just a few major movements that I wanted to mention. Every technique has at least something different in terms of alignment, angles, power generation, etc. The spinning backfist comes to mind... looks almost exactly the same, but the power generation is very different due to how the right foot steps.

I hope this is interesting to at least somebody. Other BSL people, please chime in on how you might express or apply any of these movements... assuming you can figure out what I'm talking about from the descriptions/lyrics. The movements all differ from school to school, but applications in particular are often different for everybody, so it would be cool to discuss how everyone applies the most basic core set of BSL. :cool:

[beiquan]

Ravenshaw,
Interesting post, but I'm just curious what motivated your decision to study with Lai. Personally I'd rather start a new style from scratch than have to learn a different "flavor" (and to me Lai's stuff just plain looks like CLF) and start all of this stuff that I've worked on for many years from the beginning again. It sounds like Lai is teaching a pretty different "shenfa" (body method) from what you have already learned. I mean, how do you see such "cross-training" benefiting your own practice? Just curious.
BTW, I make it into Davis occasionally (currently staying with family in Yolo county), send me a PM if you ever want to see a 3rd version of these sets -- I'm BSL from Johnny So's lineage through Sifu Kisu.

[GeneChing]

I like to get different versions too. There's something cool about researching it that way. Get a little Wing Lam flavor, a little Lai Hung flavor, maybe someday, I'll have my own flavor. ;) I remember my late friend Eric Ishi (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5295), a mantis player, once told me he had collected over a 100 different versions of bengbu. I totally respect that.

[Ravenshaw]

Ravenshaw,
Interesting post, but I'm just curious what motivated your decision to study with Lai. Personally I'd rather start a new style from scratch than have to learn a different "flavor" (and to me Lai's stuff just plain looks like CLF) and start all of this stuff that I've worked on for many years from the beginning again. It sounds like Lai is teaching a pretty different "shenfa" (body method) from what you have already learned. I mean, how do you see such "cross-training" benefiting your own practice? Just curious.

It's mostly a scholarly thing. I learn from the comparisons. I feel I'm firm enough in what I learned from WL that I can keep the two schools' methods separate. I'm not combining the two approaches to make a hybrid... I now have two #6's, if that makes any sense. When I do WL's 6, it's with the mechanics that WL taught me. Same with LH's. I don't feel much like I'm starting at the beginning again, since I still practice the 10 sets as WL taught me, just adding to my concept of BSL.

The second thing is that LH was a fighter, so I figured I could learn something about applying TCMA beyond what I've pieced together from my San Shou experience and the forms. My practice at the WL school left a gap that I want to bridge. I joined the WL school after he stopped teaching sparring and never recieved any instruction from him on the subject. It's not the only thing I care about - otherwise I would not have stuck with him - but it's something I need to catch up on.

BTW, I make it into Davis occasionally (currently staying with family in Yolo county), send me a PM if you ever want to see a 3rd version of these sets -- I'm BSL from Johnny So's lineage through Sifu Kisu.

PM coming your way... It'd be fun to discuss.

[Ravenshaw]

Get a little Wing Lam flavor, a little Lai Hung flavor, maybe someday, I'll have my own flavor. ;)

Maybe someday. ;) Right now, they're different sets entirely to me.

Didn't Sifu do that with his HG? Chiu Wai + Lam Jo? I doubt there was as much of a difference, though. LH's BSL, like beiquan said, is heavily CLF-flavored.

[GeneChing]

You've got to make the art yours somehow. Unless you have exactly the same attributes as your master - same frame, same speed, same strengths and weaknesses - your form is going to look different. I could never really play BSL like Sifu Lam because he's much lower to the ground that me and I think he has extra forearm muscles from all the HG. I think the closest of any of us was Owen, because he was almost the same build as Sifu. But to be like your master is not the point. You want to be yourself.

[hasayfu]

Ravenshaw,

Great post and thanks for sharing. I can’t follow any of the BSL technique discussions but I’d like to comment on your “cross training”

One of the many things I really appreciate about Sifu is that he encourages looking outside the kwoon. For me, it has been an invaluable training method. You will always get variations from Sifu to Sifu. Even Subitai and myself, who cut our teeth together under Sifu, approach Hung Gar differently. For a student, this is great because you can see how things are put together and emphasized differently. I’ve gained so much by training with my two Si-gungs as well as many other Hung Gar people around the world. It doesn’t mean you have to take it all but it opens your mind to things you may have taken for granted or entirely missed.

A question for the general BSL family. I’m an outsider so don’t have my facts straight but didn’t KYC send both YSM and LTH to Tam Sam to learn CLF? (enough acronyms for you?) Is that where Lai Hung’s CLF comes from or did he get it from another Sifu? IS Lai Hung the only one to have this more CLF blend?

On a similar note, while sifu does separate the different styles he teaches, he can’t help but to blend. You can see this by looking at Chiu Wai and Lum Jo and seeing where his Hung Gar fits in. This also fits in with Sifu’s philosophy that one of the goals is to maximize body efficiency and power generation. You’ll start incorporating these tendencies into your movement.

I find the shoulder comment interesting. What do you mean by raise the shoulder? I don’t box but wouldn’t a boxer still have relaxed shoulders? From wikipedia on the boxing guard, “The shoulders and arms are held without tension in order to allow quick movement.” I get the chin thing. Do you find that it’s a big difference? I ask because I don’t feel Sifu ever made us hold the head high.

[beiquan]

A question for the general BSL family. I’m an outsider so don’t have my facts straight but didn’t KYC send both YSM and LTH to Tam Sam to learn CLF? (enough acronyms for you?) Is that where Lai Hung’s CLF comes from or did he get it from another Sifu? IS Lai Hung the only one to have this more CLF blend?


Most versions of the story that I've seen do not have Yan Shangwu going to train with Tan San, only Long Zixiang. Lai's CLF comes from his training with Long, I believe.

[Ravenshaw]

A question for the general BSL family. I’m an outsider so don’t have my facts straight but didn’t KYC send both YSM and LTH to Tam Sam to learn CLF? (enough acronyms for you?) Is that where Lai Hung’s CLF comes from or did he get it from another Sifu? IS Lai Hung the only one to have this more CLF blend?

KYC and TS did trade students, to my understanding. I don't think YSW was one of them. Here's Lai Hung CLF lineage (http://www.htai.com/kungfu/choylay.html) for reference. It looks like his Buk Sing comes through TS, but through someone other than LTH. I think CLF was LH's first style.

On a similar note, while sifu does separate the different styles he teaches, he can’t help but to blend. You can see this by looking at Chiu Wai and Lum Jo and seeing where his Hung Gar fits in. This also fits in with Sifu’s philosophy that one of the goals is to maximize body efficiency and power generation. You’ll start incorporating these tendencies into your movement.

Agreed.

I find the shoulder comment interesting. What do you mean by raise the shoulder? I don’t box but wouldn’t a boxer still have relaxed shoulders? From wikipedia on the boxing guard, “The shoulders and arms are held without tension in order to allow quick movement.” I get the chin thing. Do you find that it’s a big difference? I ask because I don’t feel Sifu ever made us hold the head high.

Chin down, shoulder raised to protect the chin. I do this in San Shou as well, which has boxing hands. The shoulders aren't tense, necessarily, so it's still possible to be relaxed with raised shoulders. I can only think of one movement in BSL where Sifu told us specifically to tuck the chin (shivering rooster from #3 and #7, if I remembered the movement name correctly), otherwise he generally holds his head high. Not all movements at the LH school must have a tucked chin, but he has shown me to do so when punching, so when I'm at his school, that's how I do it.

[Ravenshaw]

You've got to make the art yours somehow. Unless you have exactly the same attributes as your master - same frame, same speed, same strengths and weaknesses - your form is going to look different. I could never really play BSL like Sifu Lam because he's much lower to the ground that me and I think he has extra forearm muscles from all the HG. I think the closest of any of us was Owen, because he was almost the same build as Sifu. But to be like your master is not the point. You want to be yourself.

Agreed. I'm huge compared to either of my BSL teachers and much younger. There's enough different between schools that keeps the sets separate for me, though my own personal expression of each method is still present. But that's a more subtle thing than the gross differences that I mentioned in my post.

[David Jamieson]

kungfu like a wineskin changes shape depending on the amount of contents inside. :D

that's a cool perspective to have on the variants.

[Maxwang]

I practice northern shaolin long fist is this short strike form Tun Da similar to the Duan Da Chuan that I have practiced? I can read the lyrics which look a little close but does anyone have it on you tube or video?

And yeah I agree with Gene and Ravenshaw by getting other flavors because there's none better than having your own:D

[Ravenshaw]

Sifu WL doesn't seem to have the clip on his site.

Funny, the only clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaBJshnx9Oo) I can find is from what appears to be a Bryant Fong student. Fong is also from the YSW lineage and his set is like the WL #6, but he modified it to give it some wushu flair. You'll see what I mean.

[Maxwang]

Thank You Ravenshaw! Wow definately modified I think I saw some Cha Chuan as well as Tan Tui along with the contemporary Wushu. Talk about adding your own flavor!!! Maybe that was too much?? But I did see a bit of the Duan Da Chuan that I practice in the opening and sparttered here and there. I think I only saw one short strike technique?

Thank you very much!



:)

[David Jamieson]

max-

i have a pdf of duan da from northern longfist. It isn't exactly the same form as whats found in ku yu cheong bsl. some elements are same though.

that clip of bryant fong is a radical departure from how i learned the set. Interesting flavour though.

[beiquan]

Here (clicky) (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=642808547) is a clip of me doing #6 at a tournament about 4-5 years ago. just for comparison.

[Lokhopkuen]

Lazy old guy style http://www.harmoniousfist.com/videos/tunda.mov

[GeneChing]

I'm so pleased to see this old thread get new life with such a vital exchange of ideas. It's a prime example of the positive side of web forums. Perhaps in the future, we can do this with all the BSL lyric threads (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19371). It'll give us something to do. ;)

Fortunately, to the best of my knowledge, there is no web footage of my sorry rendition of BSL#6. My rendition was mediocre at best and has clearly suffered from neglect in recent years. There's only two extant videos that I remember of my #6: one is in the Jinan International Traditional Martial Arts Tournament 1991 (http://www.wle.com//products/vdm91j.html); the other is footage of me doing it as part of a tourist performance alongside the monks at the Shaolin Wushuguan in 1996, and only the other people who were there might have copies of that. So you'll just have to do without. I already assault you all with my prolific writings and rantings. It would be presumptuous to torture you with my crappy BSL. ;)

[Ravenshaw]

Perhaps in the future, we can do this with all the BSL lyric threads (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19371). It'll give us something to do. ;)

Hopefully some others can get us going on those... I haven't finished LH's #4 yet ;) , though I already see some major differences. For instance, LH doesn't do the swinging backfist > swinging down punch > uppercut that WL does.

I met up with beiquan just a few hours ago, but we didn't have time to dig too deep on anything as we both had time constraints.

I already assault you all with my prolific writings and rantings. It would be presumptuous to torture you with my crappy BSL. ;)

If yours is crappy, I hate to think of what that makes mine. :eek: :(

FWIW, your example is still one I try to check myself against, even though I haven't trained with you for... ****, 4 years, if you don't count the visits you made after your departure. The way you taught/presented things always struck a chord with me and had a lot of influence on my early BSL development.

[Ravenshaw]

Alright, I have a question about #6 that will betray my density... especially considering I may have asked this question before. :o

We call #6 "Tun Da" or "The Short Strike" as Gene translated it above. Why? Is this an overall theme or concept that the set is created around? So far for me, the sets have mostly just been a collection of techniques; I have only a very basic concept of what each set's "meaning" might be. For example #1 has a bajillion kicks, #2 is ambidextrous, #3 spends a lot of time in low stances, #9 is the most fluid, etc.

[GeneChing]

...although I'd probably translate it the same way. Duan (tun) means short or brief. Duanbing xiang jie means close quarter fighting. Da means strike as in the four basic attack ti da shuai na. When Lam Sifu and I began the lyrics translations from his notes, the titles of the forms had already been translated by some previous student of his. These titles, along with their unsystematic romanizations from Cantonese, were perpetuated in our school. I decided to honor that when we did the lyrics translations. It's a bit problematic, but not as problematic as the translation of dao as broadsword. Don't even get me started on the O-mei (http://www.usaomei.com) - Emei issue. :rolleyes:

Anyway, that doesn't really answer your question. I've always interpreted that title as referring to the fact that #6 is a short form, at least in comparison to most BSL. It's a fairly common title for a form. I've heard it used in other systems to refer to completely different forms, but right now, I'm blocking on where...

[beiquan]

"Duan da" appears to be an old concept in CMA. A style by that name is mentioned in Qi Jiguang's 16th century text. Also, it is mentioned and explicitly contrasted with "Chang quan" i.e. long boxing, in the Qing dynasty "Quan jing quanfa beiyao." As Gene mentioned, there are other styles that have forms called "Duan da," I have a book with a set that I believe comes from Jingwu (the book demonstrates Gongliquan, 12 road tantui and Duan da), and Deqian's Shaolin Encyclopedia also has a Shaolin duan da quan form that is also described as containing lots of close-quarter techniques. Since the term seems to have some history connected with short-range fighting, I would imagine that is what the creators of our BSL set had in mind when they named it. But maybe we will never know... :)

[GeneChing]

....duh.... I knew I heard that somewhere before...:o

[David Jamieson]

tectically speaking, not a lot of the form metes out as close quarter stuff.

there are very noticable long range techniques in it with some short range stuff, but more reaching type stuff.

it takes up a lot of room too in it's techniques and covers a bit of distance in it's execution.

so, im not entirely sure why it's called short strike either.

wing chuns sets are much shorter range in all iterations.

i always think in terms of elevator fighting when thinking about short range stuff.

IE: up and in your grill, inside the gate, clinch range is short range by my reckoning. Tun Da doesn't have a lot of that, although it does have some that is obviously grabs holds and short sweeps in close.

[Lokhopkuen]

The appearance of the form to an uninitiated practitioner would appear medium to long range but trust me it is all short strike. Defense against chokes from behind, Defense against arm bars, with quick inside grabs (butterfly palms) followed by double knee strikes and leg splitting arrow kicks. Whirling circular blocks that FEEL like a football tackle. Nasty throws, short ranged leaping kicks THROUGH the throat and on and on. As that patent Italian sauce motto goes "It's in there". Wish my slippery slithering silver tongue could spill down through my ham handed stiff nose pickin' fingers to break it all down for you but no such luck. I just practice a lot I ain't smart enough to write about it in a coherent fashion.

And sorry Gene but I got the lock on crappy Kung Fu.....


tectically speaking, not a lot of the form metes out as close quarter stuff.

there are very noticable long range techniques in it with some short range stuff, but more reaching type stuff.

it takes up a lot of room too in it's techniques and covers a bit of distance in it's execution.

so, im not entirely sure why it's called short strike either.

wing chuns sets are much shorter range in all iterations.

i always think in terms of elevator fighting when thinking about short range stuff.

IE: up and in your grill, inside the gate, clinch range is short range by my reckoning. Tun Da doesn't have a lot of that, although it does have some that is obviously grabs holds and short sweeps in close.

[NorthernShaolin]

Lokhopkuen,

You are again correct that the short strikes are in BSL#6 and is properly named as such. This set demonstrates how to close the gap quickly, how to trap and lock your opponent's horse while closing in and striking.

Do not get caught up in the first level application (obvious applications) but discover the second level applications (I'm not talking a variation of the obvious applications). On the surface, BSL looks like all the other styles but it contains far more than an untrained eye sees. BSL is one of those styles that are referred to as "a style with very deep levels of understanding that are sometimes difficult for everyone to grasps without spending real time in studying it". From Lokhopkuen's statement, I know he has practiced BSL for many years, with many hours of hard practice. Only until one has practice BSL like Lokhopkuen has, will one begin to really appreciate and really understand the hidden treasures of BSL. I know exactly what Lokhopkuen is saying.

[Ravenshaw]

No doubt there are many movements to use in close. But isn't that true of all the sets?

[Maxwang]

Beiquan and Lokhopkuen very nice sets! The one I do is a bit different but I can see some similarities.

This is a northern form fight? Another question is what does BSL stand for Bai Si Lum?

[NorthernShaolin]

R,

Yes it is true in the other BSL sets but only in isloated techniques but more so in BSL#6.. By looking at how the techquines are linked together in BSL#6 and compare it to any sequence of techniques in the other BSL sets will give you a better picture of what I'm saying.

[Ravenshaw]

R,

Yes it is true in the other BSL sets but only in isloated techniques but more so in BSL#6.. By looking at how the techquines are linked together in BSL#6 and compare it to any sequence of techniques in the other BSL sets will give you a better picture of what I'm saying.

I'll see if I can work it out. Thanks for the guidance.

Maxwang,

BSL = Bak Siu Lum or, in Mandarin, bei shao lin. The meaning of the term isn't that specific (you could call many things "Northern Shaolin"), but we understand "BSL" to refer to a specific style, of which beiquan and LokHopKuen showed us some examples.

[Lokhopkuen]

Beiquan and Lokhopkuen very nice sets! The one I do is a bit different but I can see some similarities.



Thank you Maxwang!
Actually Beiquan is way better than the video he is showing. That one is old and there are many subtleties that he has internalized since. I have gotten older, slower and meaner ha-ha!

Northern Shaolin thank you for your words. Coming from an expert like you I feel all a glow:D

Short strike as with all of the other Northern Shaolim forms contains a series of extraordinary skills uncommon to most martial art. For instance the leaping front toe kick when performed the way I was taught is a double lifting snapping leg attack to the upper gate delivered at the apex of said leap, landing on the same leg you leapt from and using jing generated from that landing to launch the next technique which in our progression is the side kick in the opposite direction.

To quote my teacher:

The emphasis of this form is on techniques and combinations that are applied when up- close (within arms reach) with your opponent.

In contrast to the short-range (or short- hand) Southern Kung Fu styles such as Wing Chun and Southern Praying Mantis, this set also includes techniques and tactics of how to get into close range with your opponent from a distance. Like all short range fighting styles, combinations include hand trapping, simultaneous block-strike techniques, and footwork/tactics to ‘stick’ to the opponent.

The longer you practice, the more you consider what you have practiced the deeper it gets. I have also noticed that the more SIMPLE a form appears once you meditate long and hard on it, it is just as complex.

This inscrutable Yin and Yang stuff just drives me nuts!!!!!

On another note one of my students who is a Marine Recon operative just returned from Iraq. During his tour of duty he saw a few of his mates killed in the line of duty and was nearly killed himself. Thank god for the new body armor and high tech trauma plates. In the time I knew him as my student before he went to war I was only able to share Lim Po, Tan Tui and Tun Da with him. He says the things he learned in military training were of great benefit yet he attributes his survival to the lessons he learned in our Northern Shaolim classes. Tell me brothers what more could a teacher want than to hear something like this from a young man who risked everything to serve his country?


Peace

[Ravenshaw]

The appearance of the form to an uninitiated practitioner would appear medium to long range but trust me it is all short strike. Defense against chokes from behind, Defense against arm bars, with quick inside grabs (butterfly palms) followed by double knee strikes and leg splitting arrow kicks. Whirling circular blocks that FEEL like a football tackle. Nasty throws, short ranged leaping kicks THROUGH the throat and on and on. As that patent Italian sauce motto goes "It's in there". Wish my slippery slithering silver tongue could spill down through my ham handed stiff nose pickin' fingers to break it all down for you but no such luck. I just practice a lot I ain't smart enough to write about it in a coherent fashion.

I'd appreciate it if you tried anyway. I'm sure many others would, too. :)

[David Jamieson]

well, i guess you could find a lot of things in the set. after all, there are multiple applications to a great variety of movements in cma in general.

I really haven't tried any of the techs extrapolated out and placed into play in clinch range from this set vs a resisting opponent. Still working with the southern materials I have but will eventually come around to stripping down the few bsl sets I have and do this with them as well.

My way of looking at it is to extrapolate the tech out and then to attempt to apply in an offensive or defensive way to find the quality of the technique. I try not to make any assumptions with any of the sets I have been taught and have learnt over the years.

Sometimes it takes a little time to find the keys. But then a light goes on and there they are! :p

[iron_silk]

Shaolin #6 starts at 1:20mins into the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcSBl5F-2kw

but BE WARNED this "interpretation" is quite.....er.....something different

[David Jamieson]

nevertheless interesting.

kids are good. :)

[GeneChing]

I had once heard that the central five BSL sets (the short one 4,5,6,7 & 8)had been adopted, adapted and renumbered to account for the missing 1, 2 & 3 by some of the people associated with the West Coast Demo Team back in the 80's. That's Cynthia Rothrock, Ernie Reyes, George Chung, Belinda Davis - that circle. I've never validated that, but if it's true, I imagine it got spread pretty far.

[iron_silk]

Thank you...i came upon the vid by accident but if nothing else they are fairly in time doing the group sets.

I had once heard that the central five BSL sets (the short one 4,5,6,7 & 8)had been adopted, adapted and renumbered to account for the missing 1, 2 & 3 by some of the people associated with the West Coast Demo Team back in the 80's. That's Cynthia Rothrock, Ernie Reyes, George Chung, Belinda Davis - that circle. I've never validated that, but if it's true, I imagine it got spread pretty far.

I thought Ernie Reyes did TKD or some other kind of art?

I was taken a back by the different interpretation by the way they played the moves in the set.

I don't know much shaolin (just a beginner) but it struck me as most differently done version I've seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaBJshnx9Oo

On the other his (note above link) is something else. Don't even get me started on a the person that added "wushu" element into the set. I think it was posted earlier or I saw somewhere else but......I am complaining about how well the person perform the set...I am complaining the unnecessary and unnatural wushu addition to it.

It looks like a "Frankenstien" set....why...WHY?????

[iron_silk]

I just found someone doing Shaolin #7


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxmUk6xt_x8

surf's up people

[David Jamieson]

That was hula-licious :p

[Ravenshaw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaBJshnx9Oo

On the other his (note above link) is something else. Don't even get me started on a the person that added "wushu" element into the set. I think it was posted earlier or I saw somewhere else but......I am complaining about how well the person perform the set...I am complaining the unnecessary and unnatural wushu addition to it.

It looks like a "Frankenstien" set....why...WHY?????

I believe this is Bryant Fong's version of #6. Fong is a noted master of comtemporary wushu, and he also learned BSL from Wong Jack Man (I think). Fong puts on a big tournament here in California. The first time I went to it, I saw this version of #6 and I asked Wing Lam about it, who simply said the purpose was to look better for performance. Fong confirmed this when he visited my Sifu's school/store a couple years ago.

It's just his way of doing the sets. There's always been that performance factor, you know. Bryant Fong simply chose to emphasize it more. I actually prefer the look of the traditional version, but I'm biased. ;)

The techniques are still in there.

[David Jamieson]

cartwheel is easy, leg sweeps are hard.

would you rather know and train towards proper leg sweep or cartwheel?


motivation for what you do needs to be examined always. how to make it work needs to be examined always. knowing when it won't work needs to be known.

adding superfluous and tactically useless moves to something to win plastic trophies does disservice to the intention of the tactics contained in the form.

just my opinion.

[Lokhopkuen]

Shaolin #6 starts at 1:20mins into the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcSBl5F-2kw

but BE WARNED this "interpretation" is quite.....er.....something different

That was totally cool man!

Thanks for sharing.

[NorthernShaolin]

Gene,

Much of the Central core sets of BSL were taught to a number of Non TCMA masters such as Bong Yu, Ralph Castro, Bill Owens, Al Dacascos and his (ex) wife Myla, by Wong Jack Man in the late 60's. I know because I witnessed it first hand. During a span of five years, Ming Lum would bring various martial art masters from all parts of the world to our school and they all would share tea together. There was no trading of sets. They all came for one purpose: to learn from Wong Jack Man and all of them had to be introduced and recommended by Ming Lum before Wong Jack Man would even consider teaching them. Most of them only learned BSL 6, 7 and 8. A few got further and learned BSL 5 and 4. None were able to learn further. Bong got as far as the saber, while Al, Myla, and Bill got further into the weapons.

Many other visitors were famous great masters such as Adriano Emperado, Willy Jay, Ed Parker and Art Novak came and shared their experiences.

Unknown to much of today's practitioners in the Martial Arts World, Wong Jack Man has been a great contributor in spreading TCMA the early years in America. He is credited as the one who is the first to bring BSL into the open in the early 1960's to North America, and at least ten years before Sifu Chan arrived in the 1970's to introduced BSL in South America.

RS,

Yes you are right that Bryant Fong learned BSL from Wong Jack man. Except for one of WJM's disciple, all of WJM's students are my lower classmates, including Bryant. And I had asked the same question to him too and got the same answer.

Iron Silk,

Nice find. Wong Jack Man had a great influence on the Martial Arts in Hawaii and from this Vid, it is a good example. I can see, ignoring some slight changes in direction, i.e., the three direction punch and kick and the ending move, Little boy salutes the Buddha, it has all the little ear markings of the way Wong Jack Man taught his BSL sets.

[Ravenshaw]

Thanks, as always for the info, NS. :) I always learn something when you post.

cartwheel is easy, leg sweeps are hard.

would you rather know and train towards proper leg sweep or cartwheel?

motivation for what you do needs to be examined always. how to make it work needs to be examined always. knowing when it won't work needs to be known.

adding superfluous and tactically useless moves to something to win plastic trophies does disservice to the intention of the tactics contained in the form.

just my opinion.

Understood. But, to be devil's advocate... or rather, cousin's advocate. He's family, you know. ;)

We have a one-hand cartwheel into splits in #9. Like the cartwheel in Fong's set, it's in there to be showy. If I had to make a list of moves I wouldn't do in a fight, that would be at the top of the list, right underneath blocking a punch with my face.

Still, I don't mind its inclusion in the set 'cause it's a cool part of the sequence. Also, a good percentage of movements in BSL sets appear to be exaggerated, so there must be more to the set than application. If every movement in the form had to conform to application, many of the moves in the BSL 10 would change, some drastically, and some would be omitted altogether.

Not sure if this was a main point of yours, but Bryant Fong's set still has the sweep. The cartwheel is in place of the double toe kick in the sequence.

Some say difficult movements are in the sets for exercise. Of course, were exercise the purpose, we'd just do a bunch of cartwheels and jumping kicks etc. (which we sometimes do). Or perhaps it's there to make the set as a whole more challenging? In any case, I think that most traditional styles have a performance aspect built-in. You gotta look cool to get students, right? It's still an effective tactic to this day.

Does it negate the value of the form?

Just throwing out ideas, mind you. I'm not an expert.

PS. The trophies at Fong's tournament aren't plastic. Just sayin'... :cool:

[Lokhopkuen]

I like to see the sets performed ANYWAY even if someone jacks them up badly.
It shows that the style, once secret IS propagating and that means a lot to me.
BSL saved my life in numerous ways the least of which was the fact I was struck with an illness that nearly killed me a year and one half ago. My doctors and herbalist both told me my persistent practice on days where I nearly could not walk jump started my circulation and literally forced my body to live. Does a body good it does...

BSL secret: Shhhhh!!
#6 #5 # 4 are all Tun da/ Short strike. Where as #1 #2 #3 #7 # 8 #9 #10 are all Churng Kuen/ Wide open space fighting or Long Fist boxing.


Northern Shaoin thanks for the tidbits of knowledge. Each of the men you mentioned used the information your Master shared to enrich their martial styles. Not many people know but Bruce Lee studied a short time with Master Sun in Kowloon learning BSL. Anyone who has doubts need only look at the scene in Enter the Dragon where he performs a fragment of the kicking sequence in Hoy moon.

Peace

[David Jamieson]

didn't mean to siound negative, I'm just not sure about the value of wushu-ifying bsl for the sake of it.

It is already a fairly difficult style to perform comparable to a great deal of others. Not taking anything away from any other styles when I say that, just pointing out that bsl is on the top rungs of difficult to perform and that the sets can stand alone and still have all the aesthetic quality required to win a forms competition as well as being broken down into effective martial art.

yeah, it's all good in the end, but putting a moustache on the mona lisa isn't really necessary is it? :p

[iron_silk]

Gene,

Iron Silk,

Nice find. Wong Jack Man had a great influence on the Martial Arts in Hawaii and from this Vid, it is a good example. I can see, ignoring some slight changes in direction, i.e., the three direction punch and kick and the ending move, Little boy salutes the Buddha, it has all the little ear markings of the way Wong Jack Man taught his BSL sets.

NorthernShaolin

Long time no chat...thanks! I love watching others interpretation of shaolin sets, and currently I am still waiting to see yours :)

In regards to altering the set I don't have too much problem if it's meant as improvement to a certain extent keeping the original intent and flare.
------------------------------------------------
Wushu-Ized version

I know there are cartwheels and splits in later shaolin sets but the way it was added into the set seems slightly un-natural, BUT the most UN-natural part I have to say is the WUSHU elements which in my opinion does not belong in there.

My reasoning is that it completely takes away the flow or intent of the set completely. I am a beginner so maybe I don't know what I am talking about compared to you guys...........I hope you will correct me if I am wrong........

if you are doing wushu then do a wushu set....if you are doing traditional then do a traditional set.........there is such a difference in attribute that mixing the two is so un-necessary and really takes away from the positive aspects of the different styles

I didn't mean to sound harsh but that's how i see it...I am happy to take back my words if some one could give me reason to (again I don't mean how well the practitioner did the set but rather in the design of it)

Good to chat with you again (Northernshaolin) and thanks for the referral by the way! ;)

PS I think he meant the practicioner could've spent more time on doing the sweep more properly then all the other stuff...just guessing here...since he kind of slows down i.e. still not comfortable with it

[Ravenshaw]

My reasoning is that it completely takes away the flow or intent of the set completely. I am a beginner so maybe I don't know what I am talking about compared to you guys...........I hope you will correct me if I am wrong........

There are some pauses, some quicker movements, some slower movements... which is actually is a good thing. In BSL, there is contrast between the quick and slow, the big and the small, the round and the straight. There are times to flow smoothly into the next movement and times to pause for a moment. He may pause a few times for dramatic effect, but that's permissible for performance. He pauses in appropriate places, not in the middle of combinations, so I don't think the composition of the set hinders the flow very much. Also keep in mind that the video features a beginner.

if you are doing wushu then do a wushu set....if you are doing traditional then do a traditional set.........there is such a difference in attribute that mixing the two is so un-necessary and really takes away from the positive aspects of the different styles

Traditional and contemporary are more closely linked than you might think. Like I said, the set is still BSL. I see no reason to dismiss it because it concentrates more on performance than most versions. Think of it as accentuating what's already there.

PS I think he meant the practicioner could've spent more time on doing the sweep more properly then all the other stuff...just guessing here...since he kind of slows down i.e. still not comfortable with it

A cartwheel wouldn't take much extra practice time to incorporate, so I doubt it took away from his practice on the sweep. Also, the performer was a beginner.

All that said, I prefer the "traditional" way of doing the set... partially because I always thought wushu had a tendency to look really ridiculous. :p Also, I'm playing devil's advocate and trying to understand why adding a little wushu flavor is such a turnoff to people. I just don't see that it negates the value of the set.

[Lokhopkuen]

didn't mean to siound negative, I'm just not sure about the value of wushu-ifying bsl for the sake of it.

It is already a fairly difficult style to perform comparable to a great deal of others. Not taking anything away from any other styles when I say that, just pointing out that bsl is on the top rungs of difficult to perform and that the sets can stand alone and still have all the aesthetic quality required to win a forms competition as well as being broken down into effective martial art.

yeah, it's all good in the end, but putting a moustache on the mona lisa isn't really necessary is it? :p

Nah bro I wasn't putting you down and I understand your point of view. Lately I am trying to adopt a less opinionated POV.

Just because I enjoyed the performance on vid don't think for a second I'd stand for it at my own school. I am fairly bright in life and experienced in our style yet I'd never presume to intentionally modify what I have learned. I am still trying to figure out what it all means.


Peace

[NorthernShaolin]

Northern Shaoin thanks for the tidbits of knowledge. Each of the men you mentioned used the information your Master shared to enrich their martial styles. Not many people know but Bruce Lee studied a short time with Master Sun in Kowloon learning BSL. Anyone who has doubts need only look at the scene in Enter the Dragon where he performs a fragment of the kicking sequence in Hoy moon.

Peace

Yes you are correct here too. Bruce did this after his historical meeting with Wong Jack Man. This really demonstrates how much Bruce had respect for Wong's ability and his style. People just do not realize that these men had great respect for each other and left the incident behind them. It was other people who just took an opportinity to make $$$ from it.

[iron_silk]

There are some pauses, some quicker movements, some slower movements... which is actually is a good thing. In BSL, there is contrast between the quick and slow, the big and the small, the round and the straight. There are times to flow smoothly into the next movement and times to pause for a moment. He may pause a few times for dramatic effect, but that's permissible for performance. He pauses in appropriate places, not in the middle of combinations, so I don't think the composition of the set hinders the flow very much. Also keep in mind that the video features a beginner.

Traditional and contemporary are more closely linked than you might think. Like I said, the set is still BSL. I see no reason to dismiss it because it concentrates more on performance than most versions. Think of it as accentuating what's already there.

A cartwheel wouldn't take much extra practice time to incorporate, so I doubt it took away from his practice on the sweep. Also, the performer was a beginner.

All that said, I prefer the "traditional" way of doing the set... partially because I always thought wushu had a tendency to look really ridiculous. :p Also, I'm playing devil's advocate and trying to understand why adding a little wushu flavor is such a turnoff to people. I just don't see that it negates the value of the set.


Thank you for responding, after you comments I went back to watch the video again.


1) I never once mentioned having problems with quick, slow, or pauses. These are of course natural part of performance. I also said it wasn't about how well he did the set but more about the design of it.

I agree with you that they added not particularily in the middle of a section but more towards an end where a pause would've taken place given them a certain degree of liberties. Perhaps the flow is not as disrupted as I previously state but I think that is all based on the individual's interpretation.

2) Traditional vs Modern - I understand the main bulk of modern came from traditional northern styles and possess very much similar qualities BUT having experienced modern and traditional I have to say that the method of play is quite different ultimately. They are not the same...but I must say that I am on the other hand impressed with modern wushu strong foundation in stance work (with liberties for "look" but impressive none the less in posture).

So I have to respectfully disagree...in my opinion...it doesn't add anything...but in fact kind of break from it a little bit to do the wushu combo. One more thing...I would agree more that wushu is much closer to (for example) Cha or Hua style rather than BSL which flavour (at least from my experience) to be sufficiently different.

But like I said perhaps it is just me since everyone else seems to rather enjoy the clip.

3) Fair enough...I guess for most people cartwheel are not difficult...(it was for me but then again I'm in poor shape) and he is a beginner so...I'll leave it at that then.

4) I know some people who also find wush to look a little "ridiculous" but I also have to concede that some traditional northern style looks a little ...cough... as well. If the practicioner is strong enough though I think they tend to make the ridiculous stuff look cool enough that people shouldn't mind.

Ultimately I may change my mind if I watch a more experienced person doing the same version but like I said before....why? I guess for some it adds to it...I find it unnecessary to assimulate BSL with wushu.

[GeneChing]

...now I really don't care so much. I've seen enough variation and I'm not so self-centered to say "I have the only original version". If you do the smallest amount of research, you'll see plenty of variation, just like we've shown here, even within the traditional schools. And it's impossible to say who has the most authentic form. So who cares about what other people practice? My practice is my own. Your practice is your own. We are different so our practice is probably different. Of course, personally, I wouldn't add wushu into it, but I'm not going to criticize others for adapting their practice to suit themselves. Honestly, right now, if I bother to recite any BSL, my version surely has a distinct xingyi flavor, since that's what I practice more so now.

[iron_silk]

...now I really don't care so much. I've seen enough variation and I'm not so self-centered to say "I have the only original version". If you do the smallest amount of research, you'll see plenty of variation, just like we've shown here, even within the traditional schools. And it's impossible to say who has the most authentic form. So who cares about what other people practice? My practice is my own. Your practice is your own. We are different so our practice is probably different. Of course, personally, I wouldn't add wushu into it, but I'm not going to criticize others for adapting their practice to suit themselves. Honestly, right now, if I bother to recite any BSL, my version surely has a distinct xingyi flavor, since that's what I practice more so now.

Just for the record I was never talking about "original" or "authentic" version of the form since I don't believe one really exist. Even within our club my classmates and I don't play our Shaolin#6 the same way. Furthermore I even said that improvements on the set is allowed to a certain extent.

I always found those who are capable of performing wushu at a good level are amazing in term of physical abilities and that I personally can never do.

I don't know why it bothered me so much. I guess I see wushu as a more of a commercial tool and sport and they didn't do their Shaolin #6 differently because it is their personal flavour or improvement but rather to just "fit in" the wushu mode JUST so it fits in with wushu.

My bad...everyone has their own interpretation...I shouldn't be criticizing...I am surprised at myself even since I normally don't get like this.

You convinced me Gene! Thx!

[GeneChing]

Don't get me wrong, iron_silk. Stay true to your guns -- or your swords as the case may be. You sound like a traditionalist and Buddha bless you for that. I prefer the traditional versions too, truth be told. But I'm very amused to see kids in karate gis doing versions of #6, just like wushu competitors. It's fascinating to watch how martial artists, good and bad, express themselves in the modern era. It's also sort of encouraging to see that these mutation forms find some value in preserving the root, when they could just make anything up that they like. But still, I'm with you. Personally, I'd play it as traditionally as I could. A little flair is ok for those other people, but I'm too old and sloppy to worry about how the form looks anymore. I'm just happy to get through it nowadays.

[iron_silk]

Don't get me wrong, iron_silk. Stay true to your guns -- or your swords as the case may be. You sound like a traditionalist and Buddha bless you for that. I prefer the traditional versions too, truth be told. But I'm very amused to see kids in karate gis doing versions of #6, just like wushu competitors. It's fascinating to watch how martial artists, good and bad, express themselves in the modern era. It's also sort of encouraging to see that these mutation forms find some value in preserving the root, when they could just make anything up that they like. But still, I'm with you. Personally, I'd play it as traditionally as I could. A little flair is ok for those other people, but I'm too old and sloppy to worry about how the form looks anymore. I'm just happy to get through it nowadays.

That is true...I am more of a traditionalist but I try constantly be open to suggestions of improvements. I also like watching various versions of the same sets...I think it is fasinating how different lineages change the set with time. It's kind of like viewing the result of history.

I am not young nor in good shape (maybe that's why I envy wushu players??? jk) and I need to do some quick warm up and stretching before I can do a half decent Shaolin#6...I know some people would say in "real" life you wouldn't have 15mins to warm up...I personally just don't want to get hurt during a performance.

Gene on a side note I met a Hung Gar sifu recently who is also a student of Wing Lam.

[hasayfu]

I am not young nor in good shape (maybe that's why I envy wushu players??? jk) and I need to do some quick warm up and stretching before I can do a half decent Shaolin#6...I know some people would say in "real" life you wouldn't have 15mins to warm up...I personally just don't want to get hurt during a performance.

Gene on a side note I met a Hung Gar sifu recently who is also a student of Wing Lam.

Stretching is good advice all the way around. As a Wing Lam Hung Gar instructor, may I ask whom you met and where are you located?

[iron_silk]

If you are interested...this is how they do it!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kV3rrxyoHhk&mode=related&search=

[Ravenshaw]

If you are interested...this is how they do it!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kV3rrxyoHhk&mode=related&search=

A small bit of #6 appears starting at 1:24
@ 2:35 there's another demonstration that looks like most of the set

How did this form come into their curriculum?

[iron_silk]

A small bit of #6 appears starting at 1:24
@ 2:35 there's another demonstration that looks like most of the set

How did this form come into their curriculum?

Ravenshaw

Thank you for posting the time in the video...I forgot to do so.

I believe Northern Shaolin was introduced into their system due to the fact that Tam Sam (originator of Buk Sing) and Ku Yu Cheung (Northern Shaolin) were good friends and often exchanged students.

Since it is known that Buk Sing had very few forms...it is not surprising that they also practice Northern Shaolin to fill in some aspects.

[David Jamieson]

i Think the buk sing clf-ers have 6,7,8,4 and 5 while 1,2,3, 9 and 10 are pretty exclusive to the BSL of KYC.

I've heard of the middle sets being referred to as "the lower five", was that you G~? or someone else who said that. They are the shorter sets in the curriculum and contain quite a lot of the overall techniques and are not too time consuming to learn because of their shortness. So it makes sense that KYC would've traded these sets with Tam Sam from BSCLF when they befriended each other and exchanged students after the 1928 all-china kungfu contest that was cut short with 13 remaining contestants due to seriousness of injuries and even a death or two I heard.

they respected each other ability to kick ass and take numbers and hence the arrangement.

please excuse my crude history regurgitation. :)

[GeneChing]

Strangely, I totally remember when that photo with John Saxon was taken. It was at De Anza College. I remember I competed in that tournament in the advanced, but there wasn't enough traditional northern, so they collapsed the beginners, intermediates and advanced. The first beginner went up and he was awesome (turns out he had years of experience in another style but was 'new' to northern - can you say 'red shirt'?) Anyway, it totally intimidated me, but I think I still walked away with third. That 'beginner' took first. Go figure. Anyway, nice link addition to this thread, iron_silk!

I don't think I composed the category 'lower five' but I'll take credit for it to cover for all the other terms I've made up and never been credited for. I usually call those the 'short five' personally.

[iron_silk]

I enjoy watching other people's interpretation of Shaolin sets.

Congrats on your 3rd place!!! I hope to see a video of your performance one day...even if it's from a while ago.

I know what you mean...I have a si-dai who started after me but totally kick butt that the judges had to ask him how many years he's been doing.

Anyway...


I have found a new DUAN_DA clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xyIpKil7yg

if you like to see difference well let me tell you....this barely looks like it!

[Ravenshaw]

I have found a new DUAN_DA clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xyIpKil7yg


I don't think that's the same set. :confused:

[David Jamieson]

yes, this is not another version of the set, it's an entirely different set that is unrelated to Bei Shaolin from KYC. I've seen it before. I don't think it's a #6 set, I think it's just Duan Da and that people confuse it with the KYC Tun Ta and think it's another iteration of it..

Maybe it's a modern shaolin set? dunno.

[iron_silk]

I think I found another clip of NS#6 and yes this time I am sure it is the very same set ... though different flavour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I6SVlmRVKY&mode=related&search=

enjoy~!

[Ravenshaw]

That's definitely the set. :)

That is one of the lowest horses I've seen.

[SevenStar]

I learned two versions of this form... they were similar, but the first one didn't have the sweep or the tornado kick. a few other small differences as well - maybe it was done to make it easier for the beginning students, then they actual form was taught?

[David Jamieson]

I knew a more portly student who simply couldn't do the tornados and so he wasn't taught them and instead was taught an inside crescent kick and a rotation in its place.

[SevenStar]

yeah, that's what we did, but everyone learned it that way initially

[Drunken1]

I knew a more portly student who simply couldn't do the tornados and so he wasn't taught them and instead was taught an inside crescent kick and a rotation in its place.


That Description fits me! I'm a big guy, but my Lung Ying Teacher has Tun Da and a form called King's Long Fist as a requirement before you move into the actual Dragon Forms. I had to learn the sweeps, no exceptions! :( . The Salute is a lil different but the "flavor" in that clip from the NV tourney is very similar to the way I was shown.

[iron_silk]

Hi guys,

This latest BSCLF compilation video was posted on the Southern Board and I found within it a complete Shaolin#6 set so I thought it made a nice addition t this thread. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmfgLD0Vw-I

you will find it at 1:28mins into the video of a young kid performing the set... a different interpretation

[Ravenshaw]

At 0:52 in that clip, Sifu Lai Hung (one of my teachers - mentioned earlier in this thread) does the beginning of #1/#3.

In fact, the #6 that kid does in the video is the Lai Hung version. Almost the same as I learned it.

Thanks for the find.

[iron_silk]

At 0:52 in that clip, Sifu Lai Hung (one of my teachers - mentioned earlier in this thread) does the beginning of #1/#3.

In fact, the #6 that kid does in the video is the Lai Hung version. Almost the same as I learned it.

Thanks for the find.

No problem....


since you are student of Lai Hung then you should enjoy this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEPF2MvBE1s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEPF2MvBE1s) at 1:02mins you have Lai Hong performing Shaolin#7

[Ravenshaw]

Yup, those are a couple pieces of his #7. Thanks.

[Drunken1]

Hi guys,

This latest BSCLF compilation video was posted on the Southern Board and I found within it a complete Shaolin#6 set so I thought it made a nice addition t this thread. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmfgLD0Vw-I

you will find it at 1:28mins into the video of a young kid performing the set... a different interpretation


That is pretty much step for step how it was shown to me.

[diego]

Here's one we all should know (all us BSLer's at least) since it's almost always the first of the core ten to be taught. It's also the one that has the most in common with Songshan Shaolin. The monks got very excited and cheered when I demoed this for them because it looks almost exactly like the traditional stuff they do.

TUN DA: SHAOLIN #6 (The short strike)
1. Fast as an arrow, steal the heart.
2. Light steps like the wind through the willow, facing fists.
3. Flower hand, strike to the right.
4. Horse stance, horizontal punch.
5. Golden rooster stands on one leg.
6. Grab the rice, horse stance, hanging elbow technique.
7. Block down and up, striking technique.
8. Leaning the body, waiting for the tiger.
9. Monkey climbs up the tree, double toe kick.
10. Planting technique.
11. Left heel kick, shuffle, right toe kick.
12. Horse stance, striking the tiger technique.
13. Flower hand, back step.
14. Front and back sweep, striking technique.
15. Wild tiger comes out of the cave.
16. Shooting palm, heel kick.
17. Front and back strike, flat pole technique.
18. Turn around, stand on the earth holding the sky technique.
19. Fierce tiger comes out of the mountain to grab the sheep.
20. Right "crossed" character kick.
21. Right lean out punch.
22. Front step, "yin" striking palm.
23. Break the earth, planting technique.
24. Tornado kick.
25. Land in horse stance, striking technique.
26. Hanging punch to the back.
27. Sleeve wiping palm.
28. Grab the hand, horizontal punch.
29. Right "crossed" character kick.
30. Turn around, chain punches.
31. Left diagonal punch.
32. Horse stance, striking the tiger technique.
33. Back step, penetrating palm, finishing form.

I CAN'T BELEIVE YOU PUT THESE UP SIX YEARS AGO...**** it seems like a year maybe...i go on the net way too much:)

[diego]

I learned two versions of this form... they were similar, but the first one didn't have the sweep or the tornado kick. a few other small differences as well - maybe it was done to make it easier for the beginning students, then they actual form was taught?

wtf happenned to 7*?