Why not MORE Xingyi???

[CD Lee]

Just a curious thought, and I always forget to ask. Xingyi is 1000 years old, is battle proven, and proven to work many times in real combat. It has also been taught to military on a standard basis in recent history in China. With that said...

Why would an art with a history or practice and effectiveness such as Xingyi, not be more popular or rather, widely taught? I guess I am thinking only US, but I have not seen that it is really very popular. Also, if you want to find a Xingyi teacher, sometimes people have to drive hundreds of miles! Or even use video taped sessions, and mail them to a teacher to comment.

I would think it was difficult, but look at Tai Chi. It is hard to make it work, but look at all the Tai Chi teachers?

[Kumkuat]

Yeah, but most Taiji teachers are crap anyway.

[CD Lee]

Well, yes, that is very true. :D

But nobody laughs at Xingyi, yet it seems quite hard to find these days.

[jon]

Be honest...

The VERY first chinese style i ever studied was Yee Chuan Xing Yi...
I had always done Japanese or Korean styles in the past and to be fully honest... i hated it:(
It looked gumpy, the postures felt cramped, it seemed over simplisitic. It simply didnt colide with my idea of what kung fu should be.
The instructor was also an occur, he was a big well built white guy who ran the class like a fitness program. Push ups sit ups streches running and in large does.
He also did pleanty of demonstrations. He could fold any punching bag basicaly in half with a strait punch. The one that REALLY blew my mind at the time and still does for a xing yi guy.
He would lie down on the floor and invite the WHOLE class to come and grab a hold of him and try to pin him to the ground. The when everyone was in hold he would twist and wriggle and litteraly spasm his way out.

I never enjoyed the classes and never got far in the art never understanding why we where doing so much excercise so much standing meditian and such darn simple movements.

6 years later i know a LOT better. Ive seldom seen other sifus with the same power or ablity to demonstrate it and i know a lot better about how effective those 'simple' movements are and how much go's into them.

I think the honest thruth is to a total laymen Xing Yi looks rediculous when compared with western boxing. However to anyone with any knowledge of structure or body dynamics its one of the best things since sliced bread.

One day i would like to find that same 'occur' and politely request that he teach me on from where i left off... The DEAD begining :D

[TaoBoxer]

Cuz no one likes standing meditation.....

My predicition however is that in the next few years as Internal Kung Fu gains popularity, a lot of Karate and TKD guys are gonna jump on the bandwagon b/c of Hsing I's External look..... They are going to see postures, try to mimic them, and gain nothing of the Internal movements.

[circle_walker]

Both Bagua and Xing-i got a big popualarity boost after that last Jet Li flick. They are both effective styles, but have managed to stay out of the public's eye. I think the reasons for this are that internal styles require alot more work than external styles. More meditation, and a deeper insight into postures. I have noticed that almost all internal students are former external students. They just got to the point that they could see the intrinsic power that was previously overlooked. With the exception of the recreational Tai chi guys. Many of them are just looking for a low/no impact workout, and have no interest in combat applications. I have noticed that internals are growing in popularity as of late though. So maybe this won't be an issue for too much longer. We can then complain about how many fakes there are.

[razakdigital]

When I started to study the internals I wondered the same question. I researched and realize that Hsing-I is an kept secret. I realize because of the work an patience with it no one waits to put the effort in. We are all victims of a fast society and who wants to stand for a half hour in a Pi Chaun stance?

I also think the lack of knowledge of the style is due to a lot of myths that we as martial artists believe in when we read stories on internal arts. We sometimes forget that what was done in the past with the art was a different time with different type of fighters. For Hsing-I to get popular it will need to show its effectiveness in the real life combat. If you don't have a Hsing-I fighter fighting in tournaments and big fighting events no one will pay attention to its skill. That is why mixed martial arts and Muay Thai is popular because people show its effectiveness in real life combat.

I think that Hsing-I as well as Pa Kua are considered styles for New Age mystics and hippes...When other martial artist see this they are dont take the art seriously.

CDLee brought up a good statement

Just a curious thought, and I always forget to ask. Xingyi is 1000 years old, is battle proven, and proven to work many times in real combat. It has also been taught to military on a standard basis in recent history in China. With that said...

We have to keep in mind as well that the people that used this art were fighting the same type of people. The Chinese were fighting the Chinese. Look at their weight class! Can Hsing-I practitioners use this art against modern fighters that faster, smarter, and more technically advanced in their training? That is why I understand why that you should cross train in styles to that you can be deverse in your methods. When I read Pa Kua practitioners say you shouldn't be taken to ground is a fantasy! Because if you dont' train to fight on the ground what do you do if you do fall there?

[crumble]

Originally posted by CD Lee

[...snip...]

I would think it was difficult, but look at Tai Chi. It is hard to make it work, but look at all the Tai Chi teachers?

Yeah, but those slow tai chi sets allow you to have time to fantasize about being powerful, even though you are not. But all the hsing i punching and stepping drills are done quickly, so all you have time to do is think how uncoordinated you actually are.

I think that the effort it takes to learn hsing i quickly makes you seriously consider whether you want to learn how to fight (hard work) or keep healthy (less work). It's easier to do so-called tai chi just for health.

-crumble

[boy_analog]

Hey Jon:

Was your Hsing-I teacher Rob Whitewood?

I visited his school once years ago, but I wasn't impressed. Mind you, I didn't really "get" the internals at the time, so it's possible that I didn't recognise the good bits.

[blacktaoist]

razakdigital, That was a very good post reply, I see you are understanding martial arts more on the real side. Yo, bring them two Hsing Yi books to the workshop.

crumble I like your post , your statements are conforming to the facts and truth of most todays internal practitioners.


As for my opinion on Hsing Yi Boxing. I feel that it is a very hard art to learn, it may look easy, because of the few combat sets a student may learn, But the real key to learn Hsing Yi is within the San Ti or trinity posture, many of Hsing Yi fighting applications depend on this one posture.

And many today that practice Hsing Yi most of the time just practice the five elements with no kind of standing practice what so ever. So most of the time you may see people that look very good demonstrating Hsing Yi boxing forms, but as soon as you get a opportunity to cross hands with them, you soon find out, that most of these guys have no real fighting skill. All you will see today is internal practitioners doing forms, forms, forms, No real hands on $hit.

All you have to do is look around, and you only find a few if you have luck, good Hsing Yi practitioners that are getting Hsing Yi real, But must of the time what you will find is Hsing Yi teachers that claim to study the true art of FORM -MIND-BOXING

When in fact their only doing-TALK AND FORM, FORM, FORM,FORM,BOXING. all you have to do is look around and you see just what I'm talking about.


Today what you will see, is most internal pratitioners is all theory talk and forms, but when its time to show people, these fake intenal martial art analysis warriors, always come with some kind of mendacious story to excuse themself from not crossing hands with a person.

So today what you will see is just fake internal martial art mystic practitioners, that think they become some kind of warlord with chi powers and superhuman push hands skills, all you have to do is look around and you see just what I'm talking about.

With people like that around teaching internal martial arts, this is why you never see real internal martial arts or real internal training methods, unless you have luck on your side. there are many world renowned fakes out here teaching for money. Most of the true genuine internal martial art teachers don't care about making big money and having a big world renowned name.

Most genuine Hsing Yi teachers that I know, just teach a few students and like it that way, most people find these Hsing Yi teachers by word of mouth.

The bottom line is, today all you see people do is demonstrating Hsing Yi boxing forms and talk about theory and applications like always. All of them utilizing the same combat form applications and theory reference, no Hsing Yi knowledge of their own, or do they experiment with their own ideas, But hey this is how it is in all the so called internal martial arts.

Fools that think their teaching real internal martial artists, and the dump ones that are paying these fools money to learn from them.

Today internal martial arts is sad, sad, sad. To many form palyers and no real skilled fighters in these internal methods, so thats way you never see real Hsing Yi boxing in action unless you have luck on your side.

Like I said today Hsing Yi boxing and other Internal styles is all about Good looking forms and talking you to death about theory.

All you have to do is just open up your eyes and look around......... :rolleyes:

Peace

[KC Elbows]

"If you don't have a Hsing-I fighter fighting in tournaments and big fighting events no one will pay attention to its skill."

Actually, I think Mike Patterson's guys have done quite well.

"Can Hsing-I practitioners use this art against modern fighters that faster, smarter, and more technically advanced in their training?"

I'm not sure their any smarter or faster(with equal power) and most everybody who ring fights utilizes up to date training, kung fu or not. As far as more technically advanced, I'm not sure how this statement is qualified. Are you saying modern conditioning methods, or are you talking about the technical merits of the system itself?

As far as weight class, hsing yi attacks should be powerful enough to damage an opponent sufficiently to win a fight(as in altercation, not ring fight). It just takes a lot of skill. And an opponent who is not better than you.

"All you will see today is internal practitioners doing forms, forms, forms, No real hands on $hit."

Maybe its just like this where I live, but of three teachers here who teach hsing yi as their core art, two will cross hands and don't conform to the above statement, and the third I haven't met yet.

Out here, hsing yi is not rife with fakes, while there's many tai chi fakes, capioera fakes, etc. Hsing yi students are usually, in my experience, fighters who gravitate to hsing yi because of its reputation as a fighting style and not a pretty forms style(not that the forms aren't cool, they just take an educated eye to understand). Perhaps its different where you live.

Mind you, this is coming from a person who is not a hsing yi stylist, though the art I study is descended from hsing yi. Out here, I can think of no other group of stylists that I think hold closer to the real principles of their art and kung fu than the hsing yi guys I've met, and, of course, the school I go to, but of course, I'm a little biased there.


"Most genuine Hsing Yi teachers that I know, just teach a few students and like it that way, most people find these Hsing Yi teachers by word of mouth."

IMO, this applies to all the really good teachers I've known or studied with.

[razakdigital]

Actually, I think Mike Patterson's guys have done quite well.

I'm aware of Mike Patterson students. Tim Cartnell students fight as well. Again the amount of Hsing-I fighters that are out there are not big enough in numbers for the world to be aware of them.

I'm not sure their any smarter or faster(with equal power) and most everybody who ring fights utilizes up to date training, kung fu or not. As far as more technically advanced, I'm not sure how this statement is qualified. Are you saying modern conditioning methods, or are you talking about the technical merits of the system itself?

I'm talking about modern conditioning methods. This includes diet, excercise, and any other training methods that is available that was not a available during the 1000 year existence of Hsing-I.

It's refreshing to hear from you that you know some fighters that take the art seriously.

[blacktaoist]

Like I said, what people see today is non skilled internal Practitioners out here teaching Bull$hit. It don't matter where a person is from, there are only a few people that can and know how to utilize Hsing Yi or any internal methods.

FORMS, FORMS , FORMS , TALK, TALK. TALK, NO REAL MARTIAL SKILLS FROM ANY OF THESE SO CALLED INTERNAL METHODS.

Go to any Hsing Yi or most internal styles web sites or even schools, all a person will see is forms, forms, and these so called internal teachers just talk about the skills of dead past masters, their lineage, and theory and applications, that you know by looking at most of these guys talking Bull$hit, that they are so far out of shape that they can utilize what they claim they can do.

I have to say that Mike Patterson's web site the only Hsing Yi web site that I do like. He's the only one that seems to be keeping it real when it comes to the combat side of Hsing Yi and even Ba Gua Zhang. Hes not only demonstrating just forms on his web site , but he is also doing a few fighting applications.

Then theres Tim Cartmell, who web site is also one of my favorite internal martial art web sites, Tim also have movies of him doing Hsing Yi fighting applications, even himself and his students sparring. Thats what a part of real martial arts is all-HANDS ON, NOT JUST RUNNING YOUR MOUTH AND TALKING, AND FORM, FORMS.

Even erle Montaigue web site is good, because he not just talking about past masters and unrealistic Bull$hit. These men I never met, But I respect because, they are not out here just talking Bull$hit, like many so called internal practitioners that is full of $hit.

KC Elbows I respect your viewpoint, but I stand by my own opinion, there are more fakes within internal martial arts, then there are genuine, and there are just as many in Hsing Yi boxing.

[Tadzio]

Hey guys. Let me throw my two cents in.
There are several reasons why XY is not popular anymore.
One one the aspects that should be analysed is the kind of thinking that goes through the mind of many masters, now and back in the old days. Masters are and were very selective when it comes to pass their knowledge to students. The students being chinese, the teacher will first of all expect hard work from them; nothing less than hard work. Meanwhile the teacher will keep on eye on the students character, nature and private life too. If the student is less that the teacher expects him to be, he won't get the complete system. If the student is not chinese, wow...that's worse. Even now, many teachers don't teach non chinese students. In a way, I totally understand this attitude; like, you have a foreigner coming from say, US, to stay a year or two. Is the teacher really going to get to the deep part of XY, knowing that after 2 years the student will be gone and, most important, without having any idea when or if will the guy be back? Sure no. And there are some others XY masters that will tell you that they teach foreigners, but in reality, you are not getting the real thing.
Plus, the "keep everything secret" philospohy doesn't help too much. Example: I learn different techniques from my XY teacher, and he tells me not to train with anyone outside the family, not to tell anyone how to use. Considering that you have a lot of people that are not into the fighting side of it, as I am, you have to look for partners outside, but then, you remember there are several things you can't train with the other guy, and can't even tell him about. It would definetely be better for any student to train with as many different people as he can, so as to impoove his "game".
And this bring us to another important point: people that look for XY, are not into the fighting anymore. They want to be in shape, do the forms, 5 fists, but they don't want to fight....generaytion after generation it gets worse.
Another thing is that XY doesn't work like "mass production"; it's slow, it takes time and patience. That means that if you want to be able to use XY in a fight, you gotta work hard for a long time. I respect people that think that in a couple of months you can be already using XY,; maybe they have a different experience from me, but I think that it takes a longer time. Ok, anyone can use bengquan within a few months of practice, that's for sure. But are you going to be using relaxed power? Are you going to be issuing energy instead of only using physical power? Are you going to have all the coordenations there in a couple of months? I don't think so. I mean, you can hit with a bengquan, but are you going to have all the necessary "infra-structure" necessary to back it up? In today's society people are out of patience; people want quick results; in my oppinion XY is not going to give them these.
Also, chinese don't have a systematic way of teaching, like the japonese do. Very often, you don't know what you are learning or what are you supposed to be learning next.
It's important to know too that chinese martial arts need to be taken more seriously. Many masters believe that you do the 5 fists, 12 forms, a couple of 2 men forms and you are ready to fight...hey...no! You can't throw someone in a fight with this kind of trainning only. What I am saying is also that less and less teachers really know what they are talking about.
Anyway, just my 2, or 3 cents.

See you.
T.

[CD Lee]

Thanks for this discussion. I think there is a lot of truth in what everbody has said regarding the hard work. I mean, I have been working stances and stepping almost exlusively for 7 months, and you do need to have some real patience. The thing is, I may complain that we are not 'punching' and 'kicking', but then, a lot still cannot do the simple things they have asked us to work on correctly yet. It is tough work. I used to do externals, but you know, if I came to Xingyi first, I would have thought they were nuts! There is no way I would have stayed with it.

Tadzio - Great to hear from you! I did very much enjoy your article posted on David Devere's web site a while back. Very nice article. Tad, I respect your approach to XY, and was wondering what you think it takes to get from the forms and sets, to actual effective fighting. There are always discussions on this, but I know that your school in Brazil actually do fight, and have a very interesting approach to teaching XY. Frankly, I get tired of all the BS you hear from experts who don't actually fight. I know you took some flak for that article from some of Cartmell's boys, who said you must have never had a fight. You just have to laugh at all these guys who have no idea what they are even saying. Also Tad, when you say a guy that has not done much fighting cannot be expected to fight usin XY, do you mean sport fighting or bar fighting or did you have any idea in mind. You know a quick bar fight does not always take a lot of skill depending on the situation and the guy.

[KC Elbows]

Blackdoaist,

I wasn't actually meaning to disagree with you. Most of everything is cr@p. I merely have a small sample of hsing yi guys to judge from in KC, and they are actually quite a bit better than most kung fu teachers out here. I can believe there's a lot of bad hsing yi out there, but here, most of the bad practitioners gravitate towards arts they falsely percieve to have more prestige.

[blacktaoist]

Tadzio) there are some others XY masters that will tell you that they teach foreigners, but in reality, you are not getting the real thing.

BT)You make a valid point, but my opinion is, a person should be able to tell if the style their learning authentic. If a person can't distinguish if the internal method their learning is genuine or fake, then I have to say they must be just dump, or the person never had any living encountering experience with a real Martial art teachers that teach a genuine fighting system.

Also there are many Chinese practitioners that are fakes, So just because a person go to China to learn don't mean a thing, I have been to China a few Times with my Sifu, and seen good and bad. You have some Chinese that know they $hit and thats not many when it comes to utilizing their method in a actual sparring situation.

Then there is the Chinese teachers that will teach foreigners that come to China to learn, endless forms without any correct body mechanics or martial function. This way of teaching is geared for dump foreigners and americans, that don't have any actual hardcore martial art training.

My Yin style teacher Chen Xiao Ping would say: The one that hard practice will know, the ones that don't practice hard will never know.

So the bottom line is, to know if you are getting the real thing, you first have to be real with yourself, and establish realistic traing goals in your quest.

KC Elbows) I don't dispute all what you said, I agree with what most you said, I just feel there are only a few people that can utilize Hsing Yi or any internal style in any real combat situation. My viewpoint is I love the internal martial arts, But I hate the fakes, Like I said today mostly all you will see is people talking esoteric fighting methods and practicing endless forms, Dance and talking Bull$hit theory with no real martial training, is what most of today internal martial art is all about.

There are many fakes, but few real practitoners, that gos for chinese and nonchinese teachers.

[Tadzio]

Cd, thanks for the compliments. As for what people from Cartmel's school were saying about me, well, different people have different point of views, and I actually don't care what they say, to be honest with you I am busy trainning. I will just say that I fought (friendly matches) against BJJ figters, Thai boxing, Full contact, Kickboxing and I did ok, very ok. I am sure a lot of guys ut there are able to use XY for real, so I am just one more. A normal guy.

Also CD, you are right about my school back in Brazil www.xingyitchuen.com.br
My teacher has this very straight and nononsense aproach to XY, and can definetely use XY in a fight. He's that good; but, again, there are many good guys all over.

When I said that I believe that you need time to get to the point where you will be able to fight using XY, I meant exac. that; that it takes time. I think that tuishou and the 2 men forms are the entry gate to free sparring in XY. The forms are fixed patterns between 2 people, but after a while you are expected to do the forms using dfferent mutations from the fixed movements, and that's where the fun begins. But, above all, if you want to be good in fighting, you gotta fight. Once, many years ago, back in Brazil, there was an interview by one of Yip man's son (forgot wich one), and the guy was asking him how lomg should you train stick habds; Mr Yip answered: " How good do you want to be at sticky hands?" ---- Never forgot this answer.

BT, I agree with you that a person should be able to distinguish good KF from fake KF, but I totally disagree that they are dumb if they can't; let me explain. Lets consider XY, for example. The first condition to begin to learn a XY style is that you have to totally trust your teacher. Why? Only because you do things that seem totally stupid. You teacer tells you that to begin, you need to do 30 minutes of santishi everyday, that you have to work on 5 strabge forms of punching. You fell unconfortable doing santishi, don't fell any qi and feel even more unconfortable doing the fists, so you have to trust your teacher 100 percent. He tells you to do this, and because you trust him, you will do. If he's teaching you right and you are training right, in a couple of months you will have the results and will be sure that you are training with a real guy, if not, something is wrong. But until you get to this point, unless you have previous training experience, it's just too difficult to say if he's real or not.

As for coming to China and not geting the real thing, yes, of course it could happen. You have good and bad teacers anywhere. But beeing close to the source my friend, is always good. :o)

Finally, I couldn't agree more when you say that you have to be real with yourself.
Good luck with your training.
T.

[maoshan]

First, Let's get this straight.

If your learning The internal, Chances are that you began in another MA. As for if they are real or not. and if your getting the real thing. All teachers look for talent. If you don't have the talent
you are tought the commercial. An d will never graduate to learning the higher aspects. As for the trust aspect. In china this may be true. But as far as anybody else is concerned. they look for the talent, not many people have the true body of a martial artist nor can they move correctly. This is inborn.n Most teachers don't want to waste thier time. If you can't do the basics that they show you how can you expect more.

From and experianced percpective my brother is right.
you should be able to tell if your teacher is good or not. If your that blind then you need to be taken. because thats an idiot.
People take the MA's to learn self-defence. If the teacher can't kick some a$$ What's the point.
He'd have no students
But then again today it's all about the money and forms.

maoshan

[CD Lee]

Maoshan - Yes, some people simply will not have the physical abilities or balance to do this stuff well. I don't see how any of the five fists could possibly work without a well coordinated step, and a solid ridgepole. However, with those two things, and intention, the fists can be devestating. I cannot imagine the teacher can take a student very far at all, if any, if they simply work, but cannot get the basics down. McKarate schools can teach right over those shortcoming because they don't really require that level of skill, although their good students certainly will have the natural skills to be good at internals. I think your point on talent is true.

Tadzio - very cool website and great pictures. I have always been curious, seeing how there are so many bad practitioners in any art form including lower level boxers, how good a lot of the guys in Brazil are at BJJ compared to what we have seen on TV with their very best such as the Gracies. The reason I ask is for reality. If you were to meet a western boxer in a match, you would probably not find someone remotely close in skills or fighting to a worldclass top 10 fighter, such as Vargas, Trinidad, Ayala, Lewis, Barrera, Tapia, etc, etc. Those guys are incredibly skilled at boxing way beyond normal boxers. From what you have seen in BJJ locally, how much of a gap have you seen in skill and fighting ability with the Gracies or others like them and the regular guys learning for self defence?

[razakdigital]

From what you have seen in BJJ locally, how much of a gap have you seen in skill and fighting ability with the Gracies or others like them and the regular guys learning for self defence?

Good question CDLEE I'm curious to hear the answer to that question.

[les paul]

Interesting.....

I'll try to make my comments brief:

Iv'e studied Xingyiquan since 1982 (ya I'm getting old!) and I haven't seen to many people who really knew the art. My Sifu Kong shu Jim (passed away in 1992) taught very different from most of the internal arts I've had the pleasure of seeing. His teaching methods were very demanding physically.

I've seen a lot of people who have supplemented their xingyi knowledge with other techniques from a different style. (usually something like Taijiquan)

Most people get exposed to Xingyi through schools that *******izied it (only teaching the five element in it's most basic form) then go on to teach a little Taiji and a little Bagua.

It is vary rare to see xingyiquan taught as a whole in the USA

As far as the interenet goes I only know of only a couple of fully immeresed/trained Xingyi men out there.

Little comments or brief statement if you know the art clues you into someone's knowledge.

I had a brief conversation with Kenneth Fish on Pan Gen over on empty flower. com He knew things that you would only know if you studied xingyi for a long time.

For example, Xingyi is not linear...never has been.....through Pan Gen, the Yin side of the art (the circular side ) is explored. Up untill that point, one has learned only the Yang side of the art.

I once had a conversation with a guy named Filpe Bideo (sic) I'm not sure if that's correct spelling) over some application in Ann shen pao or was it xa shi chui? Anyway, he was either on his way or actually there as far as knowledge/experience is concerned.

There are others, but these are some of the more internet active xingyimen that I have spoken with.


As for the Blacktoaist's comments of pretenders......they are so true....

Rememeber!!!!!!

Xingyiquan lives by one code! When it comes to training, "you must fight it out" when looking at a techniques effectiveness. thier are "NO!!!!!" dead techniques in Xingyi. That is why they are so simple (but complex) to perform.



When in doubt!......fight it out! ....anything else isn't Xingyi training.


The true art not withstanding the various styles within xingyi, with popularity, should start to introduce itself to the public, just as Bagua is doing now.


Les paul

[swmngdragn]

Hi folks.....

My impressions of Hsing-I as a whole art is precisely the same as my take on *any/all* of the Internal Martial Arts. It's the fact that knowledge has been lost over the recent past due to the "secrets" of past masters, and the "misinformation" that's been propagated. What's happened is that civilization has been changed over the last century to the point where fighting is superfluous in the martial arts. The original intentions have been/are lost in todays commercially oriented arts. What counts now is money/commercial success/fame. It's a "chocolate" society worldwide. Immediate gratification.

Previously it was all about survival. Period. What we seem to be left with is uncounted hundreds of "sifu's", "masters", and "grandmasters" who have nothing, *but* forms. The "martial" side of the arts is disregarded wholesale, and even if "fighting" is recognized, the details of the training(s) are/have been forgotten. This generation of Internal Martial Artists is *so* far below/behind the previous generations as to be laughable.

That's not to say that there aren't good teachers available, but that they are *very* few, and far between, and even if they're available to the public they may only have a piece of the puzzle. Even at my, admittedly, low level I can "see" if a supposed "master" has any type of "internal" ability. I've even managed to "touch hands" with several very well known, and found them seriously wanting. Lacking even what I consider the most basic of "internal" mechanics. These are the men we look to for the answers, and they don't even know the questions. Sad state of affairs.

We are in a "visual" age where "what we see must be true" rather than what should be felt. We manage to "fool" ourselves into believing what's "real", rather than just work hard, and realize that any benefits are just the byproduct of *correct* training. Recently I made a visit to a few collegues in the south, and had a chance to see a, relatively, well known teacher from their area. I didn't even have to see him do anything other than walk from his car to the front door of his school to recognize the fact that the man had nothing. He may have been a fine athlete, but was definately *not* an internalist. Even though *that* was what he promoted himself as. Just because a form is "correct" doesn't make the practitioner *correct*.

This is what I see all over, and it lessens what the internal martail arts *should* be. I see video clips of hsing-i, taiji, and bagua from all over the world, and I've yet to see anyone worth my time, other than the man who has trained me from the start in the internal arts. That's why I choose to train privately, and work exclusively on the core of my art. *That* training is what counts. *Not* fifty different forms, and countless hours of "practice" of what "looks" good, but has no real value. Down the road those things *may* have value to me, but for right now, and the foreseeable future, core training, not practice, is what it's all about.

That's what's missing from all of the internal arts for the most part. The diligence, patience, and willingness to put in hours of work for the long term. *Training* instead of "practice". What's seen is "empty hands" instead of full ones from the ima community. As far as teachers/schools who are/have competed recently in tournaments? Let's just say I'm not overly impressed with any of the students, or the instructors, "abilities" as a whole.

[Water Dragon]

It's out there. I can name just as many good internalists in Chicago as I can BJJ or boxing. I don't think it's valid to expect the art to be around every street corner. No other fighting art is.

Also, the internet is not the place to be looking. There's not a lot of high level people running around posting everywhere.

Also, many people feel that if someone is not training exactly as they do, the other group is a sham and a fraud.

Lastly, for some reason, in IMA, there can be only one for some reason. If you don't believe me look at all the posts of people claiming that only they have the truth and every one else is a fraud.

Believe what you want, but it's out there. All you have to do is look around and use yopur common sense.

[Phantom Menace]

It's just hard to find a bonafide Xing Yi teacher.

[circle_walker]

I don't know if this will assist the argument, or be just another voice screaming into the wind. I am presently a beginning Bagua Zhang student. Aside from a breif foray into Tai chi, this is my first internal training. I looked for a long time to find a teacher that I beleived to be competent. Someone who would not be just babbling esosterics, because internals are rare enough to be passed off as mysticism. My teacher has not talked to me about the theories, or principles of Xing-i. To be honest, I had heard of it in passing. Seeing it advertised on miscelaneous school windows. I saw demonstrations of it more recently. I could'nt have cared less. It meant absolutely nothing to me. I was interested in Bagua, nothing else. One day during class my teacher was practicing on his own. THAT was XING-I. I have to learn THAT. Right now I am devoted to my Bagua. i won't dilute my training and half-@$$ learn both at once. Later when I have more of a grasp on my present training, I will take on more. I just know that actions spoke much louder than words in this case. I agree with Water Dragon, the real thing is out there. I admit I am know next to nothing of Xing-i, but I know what I saw was different than what was being passed off as internal elsewhere. What I saw was rooted, powerful, and explosive. Forgive me for talking out of my own admittd ignorance. I just thought that this particular observation had a place here.

[swmngdragn]

>>It's out there. I can name just as many good internalists in Chicago as I can BJJ or boxing. I don't think it's valid to expect the art to be around every street corner. No other fighting art is. <<


I know for a fact that you're sadly mistaken. From this statement alone I know what "level" you're at.

>>Also, the internet is not the place to be looking. There's not a lot of high level people running around posting everywhere.<<

Whoever said that they were? Most of us are poor, and perhaps a few are "o.k." Do you consider yourself "high level"? I don't consider myself anything special, but I *know* that I'm better than you as far as the internals go. If for no other reason than experience, and length of time in training. I certainly don't post on one hundred boards, and expound at length over everything/anything. I spend a vast majority of my free time training, and *not* on the computer in the attempt to better myself. I suggest, highly. that you do the same.

>>Also, many people feel that if someone is not training exactly as they do, the other group is a sham and a fraud.<<

I'm not even looking at training methods. I'm looking at so-called "finished products".

>>Lastly, for some reason, in IMA, there can be only one for some reason. If you don't believe me look at all the posts of people claiming that only they have the truth and every one else is a fraud.<<

Let's just say that anything I've ever claimed to do, I *can*do. No one has *ever* proven me wrong where the ima's are concerned. I get my information from the best. Not only in instruction, but in experience. I have "tested" the theories, and know what my own short comings are. I don't delude myself. I can afford to be an opinionated ass. I've put in my time training, which I continue. I've the "pedigree", which is beyond reproach. I recognized early on in my training with my sifu what the "truth" was. Can you say the same? Have *you* earned that right?

>>Believe what you want, but it's out there. All you have to do is look around and use your common sense.<<

After having been on this Earth approximately twice the amount of time that you have, and having had considerably more experience in most everything that you've encountered. I believe you need to address me with a bit more respect. Until then, everything you have to say is moot. Regardless of the fact that your teacher, and I are on friendly terms. That still does not give you the right to even expound upon my opinions in this manner. Perhaps Joe will read this, and e-mail me privately conveying *his* opinion. Until then, you must drink tea, Larry.

[Water Dragon]

Drake, I can name two internal teachers in Chicago. One being Mr. Choi and one who's name I can give you privately if you'd like. I can also name two BJJ schools and 1 good boxing gym, although there must be 2 or 3 more in the city. They can be found if you look. That was my first point, even if worded rather poorly.

I know for a fact that you're sadly mistaken. From this statement alone I know what "level" you're at.

I know what level I'm at as well. I never claim to be advanced in anything around here. I state my opinions and experiences as honestly as I can. For the record, I feel I'm somewhere in that hazy area that might be considered intermediate but still could be a beginner as well. I find no shame in that.

>>Also, the internet is not the place to be looking. There's not a lot of high level people running around posting everywhere.<<

This line simply means that you don't see Wai Lun Choi, David Lin, Gin Foon Mark, etc. posting advice on the net.

But most importantly: Drake, if I've offended you I apologize. If you think that the post was directed at you because it was posted after yours, that's not true. I have nothing but respect towards your teacher, and have asked after you within my training group. You were spoken well of and in a manner that has gained my respect.

I still wont apologize for the post though as those views are my sincere opinions, which I have the right to post.

[CD Lee]

Posted by swmngdrgn:

. I don't delude myself. I can afford to be an opinionated ass. I've put in my time training, which I continue. I've the "pedigree", which is beyond reproach. I recognized early on in my training with my sifu what the "truth" was. Can you say the same? Have *you* earned that right?


Humility. You are lacking the humility and respect for others that I would have expected to find in someone who is so accomplished at internal arts, after 30 years of training, and of someone who has understood the 'truth'. You may ge great at forms and even fighting, better than all of us, but you lack the refinement of character that it takes to deserve the respect of strangers.

Just on a strictly objective level, how am I supposed to believe you, when you don't believe others such as waterdragon? A forum is a place for public observers to share in a mutual exchange. If you have a personal axe to grind on Larry, then you should deal with him in email. Otherwise, you have provided nothing in the way of names, schools, references, or anything else other than your personal opinion that you are better than most. Like I said, you may actually be, but you have given this forum of listeners no reason to give you credibility. Frankly, you sound like a kid or a very frustrated middle aged Walter Mitty.

[swmngdragn]

>Humility. You are lacking the humility and respect for others that I would have expected to find in someone who is so accomplished at internal arts, after 30 years of training, and of someone who has understood the 'truth'. You may great at forms and even fighting, better than all of us, but you lack the refinement of character that it takes to deserve the respect of strangers.<

Humility = An act of submission. (Taken from Funk @ Wagnells New Comprehensive Dictionary)

I believe that you need to reevaluate your over all comprehension of the English language. As far as your other assertions? Well ..... Lets just say I've never wanted for a lack of confidence. I've been know to acquiesce from time to time, but *never* to submit. Respect is earned in both word, and deed. For those who matter in my life I've *earned* that respect. Also, for your personal note book on my life, I've never claimed to train in the T.C.I.M.A.'s for thirty years. I've trained in a *variety* of arts for that length of time. It's only been for the last eight that I've been exclusive in my attention to the T.C.I.M.A.'s.

>Just on a strictly objective level, how am I supposed to believe you, when you don't believe others such as waterdragon? A forum is a place for public observers to share in a mutual exchange. If you have a personal axe to grind on Larry, then you should deal with him in email. Otherwise, you have provided nothing in the way of names, schools, references, or anything else other than your personal opinion that you are better than most.<

I'd never made any such assertations. If anything, I observed my own "prowess" from a distance. In my own *opinion* I am a bumbling oaf. I cannot fool myself. Other than that? Who are *you* to insert *your* *opinion* of me based on my own *opinion*? For your information the "insult" I imagined was from poor phraseology on Larry's part, and my own rash misinterpretation. Larry, and I have rectified the matter between us. In a private manner. *You*, on the other hand, are better served in training, rather than "running off at the mouth" on the computer searching for answers that are, ultimately, found within said training, and yourself. For your information, a mutual exchange is *not* an indictment of anothers opinion. Appropriately, it's *you* from whom the indictment comes.

>Like I said, you may actually be, but you have given this forum of listeners no reason to give you credibility. Frankly, you sound like a kid or a very frustrated middle aged Walter Mitty.<

I've not asked for your acceptance of my "credibility". As *you've* made *your* opinion of me based on a situation that you weren't invited in to, and as such have made your *opinion* of me based on a misunderstanding, I'll say this much. I make no bones about who I am, and I make myself readily available to those with whom I have created some sort of relationship with. Even across the internet. If you have a "problem" with me, you're more than welcome to come up, and we can ....."discuss" the problem. I'll even cook a fine lunch, or dinner when we're done. I'm more than willing to debate whatever fine points of humility, or the lack thereof that you seem to think I have. However, I beleve you *may* want to reread my original post, and then W.D.'s, and see where I could have made my mistake. From my point of view. As to my being a "frustrated middle aged Walter Mitty"? I *did* enjoy the movie. Very much so.
I *don't*, however, live within my own, rather fanciful, imagination. Unfortunately, I must live in the, present, real world. As must we all. "Frustrated"? Perhaps. More so with those who would rather discuss, and theorize than work. I "sound" like a child? My adult child would argue that point. I certainly do not. I *do* do my best to keep a rather "youthful" perspective. I'm also in better physical condition, as well, due to that "youthful" perspective, and a preponderant desire to protect me, and mine. Especially given our current timeline.
Until you've managed to "walk in my shoes", so to speak, you need to ask yourself the selfsame "questions", in a matter of speaking, that you've posed to me. I think that perhaps you'll find some rather "incriminating" evidence in your own psche. This is the last I'll write on this matter that you've so handily "insinuated" yourself into. Perhaps, at another time, we can discuss the hubris that you've exhibited at the time of this writing. Until then, you must drink tea.

[CD Lee]

Quoted by swmndrgn:

Humility = An act of submission. (Taken from Funk @ Wagnells New Comprehensive
Dictionary)

I believe that you need to reevaluate your over all comprehension of the English
language.


I’m sorry, I was using the Webster’s New World College Dictionary’s (fourth edition) rendition of the word humble:
‘having or showing a consciousness of one’s defects or shortcomings’. I think you realize your shortcomings well enough, you just need to let that self-knowledge and martial skills blend a bit more.

You complain about my use of one word, offer one dictionary description, and then tell me to re-evaluate my ‘over all’ comprehension of the English language. I just lowered your grade by 10 points. :D Shouldn’t that be ‘overall’? I will give you credit, you use a lot of MBA level English words in your post, but your English usage and word choice are off sometimes. Martial application: Big words are similar to big hard punches. Lots of power, but without proper usage or delivery, it is just a big hard punch.

I am talking about a spirit of humility that should come with self confidence and expertise in your field. Not fear, or giving in as your choice of definition implies. I’ll be frank. I don’t like you disrespecting Larry on this public forum, and using your experience to trash him personally in front of everybody. Speaking of hubris, YOU are the one who took Larry’s post as an affront to your post simply because it was behind yours. That is truly rushing in impetuously. I think you need to be more contrite about the matter. Until then, drink tea. And yes Mr. Almighty, we all have the ‘RIGHT’ to post our opinions about your posts on this forum. I am not accusing you of being an dilettante expounding phatically, just an arrogant bully. Like I said, the tea is on the burner. Drink up.


Larry, and I have rectified the matter between us. In a
private manner.


You don’t need a comma after Larry, and your next statement after the period is a sentence fragment. 10 more points. Better yet, "Larry and I have rectified the matter between us in a private matter." Who brought up the English subject? I could really go to town on this you know…I will tap out for everybody’s sake. Just an example of bad delivery and technique. However, all else aside, since you trashed him publicly, a pulic resolution might be nice. Unfortunately, you brought your dirty laundry onto the forum already.


..... Lets just say I've never wanted for a
lack of confidence.

Confidence is one thing. A humble person can be very confident. You seem arrogant. Check out the English usage on those two similar yet different terms. “…full of or due to unwarranted pride and self-importance;overbearing…”


I've not asked for your acceptance of my "credibility". As *you've* made *your* opinion
of me based on a situation that you weren't invited in to,


You are posting an ‘expert’ opinion on the condition of authentic Xingyi practice in the US (which is a very large geographic area), stating that there is none to be found, and are doing so on a public forum with hundreds of users. Check out the definition of ‘forum’. As far as being invited, I started this thread publicly, and you have invited yourself in. You are as welcome as everybody else with an opinion. However, a public forum is no place to set up camp and start squatting. In addition, as regards your credibility, you stated a hard opinion and backed it up with your 30 years of experience. If that is not seeking credibility within your target audience, then you need to tell me what you were implying by listing your personal experience as one having an opinion on the state of Xingyi in our country. I made my opinion of you based not on the *situation*, but rather on your hubris in taking a public post too personally.


If you have a "problem" with me,
you're more than welcome to come up, and we can ....."discuss" the problem.


What? You want to fight? Just state what you mean. I am sure with your *expertise* comes the need to have to prove yourself to low level practitioners such as me. Self confidence and humility should rid you of that desire. Or do you really want to just ‘discuss’ The first thing a bully does is try to solve things with a fight. I thought good kung fu got us past these things. :rolleyes:


Perhaps, at
another time, we can discuss the hubris that you've exhibited at the time of this writing.
Until then, you must drink tea.


Maybe. I am sure you are a great guy, and we just got off on the wrong foot. I would not characterize my post as hubris. I think I am on a public forum, posting on my own thread. Perhaps you think I was impetuous, but to me you were a cacophony, with a caustic opinion and dissonant attitude. I re-read your original posts. As far as hubris, let me say it this way. Everybody was posting opinions on the art of Xingyi and you took Larry's post very personally, and started a personal attack on him the person, not on his ideas. As far as your first post on this thread, I found it very interesting.

I like your ebullience, but I think some synthesis of your physical and mental skills would benefit all martial artists. Until then, I’ll just drink some *beer* and pass on the tea, thanks.

BTW. Try out the ‘bold’ function in place of the * usage. I think you’ll like it.

[Ray Pina]

Well, since I'm in the hood today:

Not popular ANYMORE?

Who was talking about Hsing-I 10-15 years ago? Same with Ba Gua?

Now seems like everyone knows not only 1, but several non Taiji internal players. Not just players, but masters. Even on the Kung Fu (external) board, guys are talking Hsing-I this and that.

I don't think its ever been more popular. I agree with the BS comments, but that is not just internal, that is all martial arts.

Those who want to really learn will, they will go to class, study the info and do what they have to do on their own to test.

Find that one good teacher.

From my experince, I have seen three types of teachers/schools.

Commercial: do forms, maybe some light joking sparring and at the most go to tournaments for a game of tag.

From S. Mantis: A small close nit group of guys who train behind closed doors and fight amongs themselves. Later on, for fun, the teacher takes them to a "tough" spot and instigates a situation to test.

Teachers who are too good to care: They accept all challanges on the spot. Don't allow their students to fight openly, because no matter what they are not good enough yet, and need more drilling, deeper basics. Will do full power drills but under a controlled envirnment.

This environment is tricky. Students, not forced into fighting situations, can become lax, and fall into the aformentioned theory game. They are learning hi-tech stuff but never test it. BUT, there are those who will come, take what they can, incorporate it into what they have and keep learning, adding little by little and refining, removing little by little.

Hopefully, they have made some contacts by this stage of the game, and can test now and again.

My mind is all over the place as of late. Seeing alot of new stuff, and where I thought I was once a decent fighter, I now think I am weak.

Got into a fight yesterday a matter of fact. Maybe that's why I'm here to day.

Peace

[CD Lee]

I started Xingyi without even knowing what it was! I really mean that too. Sounded like a bunch of gibberish to me. But I did external stuff before, so I realized what was going on pretty quick.

What really initiated the question, was that once I discovered how awesome this art is, you look around for a teacher, and they are so sparse, you are literally LUCKY to find a Xingyi teacher within 100 miles of any given place. Add to that, you may want a very good teacher, and you see what I mean.

You know, it is not like you can learn the five elements like Karate, and make it work like Karate.

[Bobba Fett]

Xing Yi is hard to learn period. Our total class size consists of three students.

My classmates originally started with Bagua (we are still learning). As a way to keep our practice fresh, our teacher asked us if we would like to learn something else. One of my classmates was interested in learning an external style. I suggested that we ask sifu to teach us XingYi.

The Black Taoist has it right when he talks about the importance of standing in San Ti. My teachers grand teacher Sun Lu Tang's had a Xing Yi student, Qi Gong Bo, who did nothing but stand in San Ti for the first three years of his training. The story goes that he was a little slow, and couldn't learn the forms. He ended up being Sun Lu Tang's best student. My teachers teacher Sun Jian Yun says that Sun Lu Tang recommended that his students work their way up to an hour, switching the stance when they became exhausted.

Our teacher checks our "linking" or body alignment, by applying force while we our in one of the postures. Even small changes in position can have a dramatic effect on rooting. XingYi, as with Bagua is subtle and takes diligent effort and training to become proficient. The movements look simple, but they have to be executed perfectly to work.

[Brad]

Do you Xingyi guys only hold Santi on one side or do you switch trying to do equal time on both sides?

[Xebsball]

both sides dude