LaiSee and Lion Dance traid related?

[hasayfu]

How many people believe that using LaiSee in a Lion Dance is a Triad(AKA gangster)Ritual or a form of extortion?

FYI, LaiSee are sometimes called Hung Bao or Red Envelopes and you see them often around chinese new years. People put "lucky money" in them and it can used to feed the lions or on the Choi Chang.

[Kung Lek]

Hi,
We had a really long topic going on this point at a liondance mailing list that I and others here are members of.

While it may likely have occured (extortion via Lion Dance), this is definitely not the root of Lai See or the choi chiang aspects of Lion Dance.

peace

Kung Lek

[fiercest tiger]

spose giving your sifu a red pack is extortion too! well what is the world coming to, they dont have to give lia see if they dont want to!

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[hasayfu]

As Kung Lek said, this came up on the lion dance email list. I was, to say the least, shocked and apalled at the number of people who not only believed this but advocated not using LaiSee with the lion dance. This from a list of lion dancers!

I just wanted to see what the southern martial community thought of this. At first I thought it was one uneducated voice but there were so many believers that I wanted to know if I was the minority opinion. Hence the poll.

thank you for participating.

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Unfortunately, I deleted all my lion dance email from the LD mailing list.

I've heard about street gangs using the lion dance as a guise for extortion (protection money, drug money, gambling debts, etc.). Because the money is supposedly for "lion dance" purposes, it's difficult to prove what the money is really for.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Hi,

Gangs using Lai Si given at Lion Dance is a very inefficient way to extort money. It may have happened the odd time...but think about it - extortion is a weekly, bi-weekly or monthly thing, and it would indeed be suspicious and uncalled for to do Lion Dance that often. On the greater whole Lai Si is given by a business for a performance well done by a kung-fu school and/or Lion Dance group.
All the Best!
GHD

[fukien]

The Lion Dance is routinely used as a tool of extortion thoughout Asia.

Those of you who think otherwise probably think the Mafia is a figment of the Government's imagination.

While the roots of it are honorable, THE FACT IS, liondancing IS used as tool for extortionists here in
America and in Asia. For example, in Hong Kong during the Chinese New Year, there are posters all
over and TV ads warning people to be aware of extortionists using liondancing as a "front".

It makes me sick that Americans think that all Gung-Fu "Masters" have a higher social concience,
are more honorable, and more repsectable than the average Joe. This is BULL.

Well, I hate to break your bubble, but THERE IS NO CORELATION BETWEEN MARTIAL SKILL
(real or precieved) AND "HONORABLE" BEHAVIOR.

Knowing and/or being skilled in Gung-Fu is no indication of a man's true character.

You all have watched too many movies.

There are and have been, many "Masters" who have been convicted of felonies,
run bull "schools" and are just not good people, but since they profess to be "SIFU'S"
and/or "MASTERS", we as a people are blind to the REALITY of their true character.

We all have watched too many movies.

HOOK, LINE & SINKER we swallow the crap that is fed us, without looking into the
TRUE background and character of those who would hold us up to "Protocols" and
other Eastern "Hocus-Pocus".

CAVEAT EMPTOR.

Ò

[Kung Lek]

yeesh, fukien, i thin dat you is bein a bit cynical.

I'll bet for every "extortion" lion dance "team", there are 50 teams that do it better and do lion dance for exactly the reasons it was meant to be done for.

Point being, people dress up as priests to smuggle drugs, people dress up as santa claus to defraud the public, yada yada yada, the criminal element in any society will attempt to blend in so as not to be noticed.

So chill out, you sound real bitter, like you have personally had a bad experience with an evil sifu, which there are very few of, and those who call themselves "sifu" without taking on the true responsibility of being one only fool themselves.

Besides, Lion Dance is a lousy cover! hahaha

"ok here's the plan, we're going to old man wongs to get money from him, you bang this drum as loud as you can, I'll whack this gong, jimmy will crash the symbols and tony and ralphie here will dress up in da giant lion puppet and we'll sneak in, catch him unaware and get him to give us the dough"!

sounds like the three stooges doesn't it? hahahaha.

peace

Kung Lek

[Stumblefist]

Well first of all where is the e-mail discussion list? like to have a look.
My old chintown club, well whenever ther is a parade through chinatown with our team the merchants who give money get a special performance in the way the lion "eats" the money, old friends and special associates get more special attention. In return for the "hong bao" the merchant usually is handed a invitation for the lavish banquet that evening. The cost of the banquet is quite expensive. It's about a break-even proposition. The whole thing is done because the community wants it and the merchants believe somehow it will be lucky for them or they just want to maintain tradition and community ties. At the banquet the businessmen are maintaining their community connections. The clug and team is an essential part of the community.
The lion dance team is a money-maker for the club in other respects, many businesses and individuals hire the team to bring them personal luck or for some community event. In that respect it is a straight business and straight for-hire event. Also the team might be needed for a non-commercial event, like a city parade, a inter-club meet or wlecoming a visiting sifu or diplomat from china.
I've always thought that the practice could have derived from some kind of extortion procedure in old china although that doesn't have much to do with the New World that i know about.
As far as extorting money goes, it happens in much more straightforward ways in modern chinatown.

[Santa Claus]

"......People dress up as santa claus to defraud the public, yada yada yada, the criminal element in any society will attempt to blend in so as not to be noticed"

Hey Kung Lek, please leave me out of this discussion. I'm not a triadmember.

Santa

[WongFeHung]

Santa, you may not be a triad member, but you are a freakin criminal. First you know when I'm sleeping, you know when I'm awake-what are ya some kind of pervert peeping tom stalker? or Big Brother? You wear a red suit and have long hair and a beard-obviously some commie hippy dirtbag type-and btw, what IS in that pipe that you're smoking? You come into my house at night? Are you some kind of ninja terrorist? or a stalker? I don't like you, never did, and I hope you come down my chimminy 'cause it goes into our oil burner! Die you old ****! (never did get that firetruck-I hate you)

[Santa Claus]

Ho - ho - ho
Hey Tentigers, show some respect.
1. I'm older than you,
2. I'm a dinosaur myself,
3. and also practice Hung Gar*.

* Studied in the Southern Siu Lam Monastery under Chi Sin together with Hung Hei Kwun, some few hundred years ago.

By the way, in my pipe is some real good Afghany
hash, sometimes Citral too. I'll put some peaces into your chimney next time when I'm around.

Santa

[Stumblefist]

He SEES you when you're sleeping
He KNOWS when you're awake
He KNOWS whether you've been bad or good
So you BETTER BE GOOD for goodness sakes
.........................................