What's the story behind William Cheung learning a different Wing Chun from Yip Man?

[gnugear]

ATTN: This is NOT a trolling/flaming post.

I just read this earlier today and never heard the story.
Something along the lines of Cheung living with Yip Man for four years and learning a more practical form of the system that he wasn't supposed to teach anyone until after his death.

Is there truth to this? I just saw some video clips and their forms look much different ... much more aggressive.

[Alpha Dog]

Take Yip Chun, for example, he does man sao with his thumbs up like the Fonz! Or is that just for the cameras?

[anerlich]

That's William Cheung's story, and it is true that his stuff has differences from other YM direct students (as do many of the rest from each other).

The story unfortunately has no supporting evidence other than William Cheung's own claims, and is thus open to question.

There is more to it, viz. that Chan Wa Soon was taught an inferior "modified" version of WC by Leung Jan, who wanted to keep the Real Thing for his sons.

Yip Man learned from Chan Was Soon and became a major bada$$ of a WC fighter. But he ran into an old guy who bested him easily. This turned out to be Leung Bik, Leung Jan's elder son, who thn taught Yip Man the Real Thing.

Yip Man allegedly only taught the midified system to the general populace, and reserved the Real Thing for William Cheung alone, swearing him to secrecy. After Yip Man died, Willaim Cheung then felt free to teach the Real Thing.

I'm from william Cheung's lineage myself, but I've never been able to accept this version of events. Too fantastic, I've seen bad KF movies with better plots.

There is talk that this story was made up to account for some secret training William Cheung undertook on mainland China with an unknown master when he had to leave HK due to involvement in illegal actvities, but there is no hard evidence for this either.

This story is arguably the root of the biggest controversy in modern WC, and has already led to two highly publicised "fights" or ambushes among senior practitioners, depending on who tells the story. You would do well to tread carefully.

[kungfu cowboy]

Aaayyyyyyyyy!LOL! I did hear that he loves reruns of Happy Days, and can even turn on a jukebox with a pak sau!:D

[Rolling_Hand]

--The story unfortunately has no supporting evidence other than William Cheung's own claims

Hey brother,
This should feel like a rerun by now. William cheung's story gets on your nerves.

--I'm from william Cheung's lineage myself, but I've never been able to accept this version of event.

LOL!!!I've never been able to accept Sum Nung/YKS claims either. So, what else is new? Fast-forward to something proactive.

[gnugear]

What was the "other" incident? I heard about the one with Emin Boztepe ...

Again, I'm not trolling, I'm just curious about some of this stuff since it's the first time I'm hearing it.

[hunt1]

Didnt Phil get a burr up his butt when i mentioned this?)
Gnugear search past topics.This one comes up every 3 months or so.At least 2 incidents.Other one referred to happened in New York.Most interesting in Hong Kong with a student of Lok Yiu behind closed doors in the 80's.

[anerlich]

RH,

rerun is right - even more than Happy Days!

gg,

There was a fight in NYC between TWC's Keith Mazza and WT's Andrew Draheim in I think 1996, after the latter started a huge flame war on rec-m.a. As with the previous incident, all involved deserve condemnation for their part.

[Rolling_Hand]

--rerun is right - even more than Happy Days!

If that's your way of getting HIGH, then you're such a ( ? )- head?

[anerlich]

RH,

The other guys mentioned Happy Days, I was going with the flow.


If that's your way of getting HIGH, then you're such a ( ? )- head?

Meaning what exactly? I started a civil conversation with you, are you insulting me now? Who said anything about getting high?

[reneritchie]

Martial arts are no different than anything else in life. Think of your own family. Not every story told is an historically exact sequence of events. Some are allegory, with moral lessons and social messages. Some are fish stories or ghost stories. Some are based on emotion, on old joys or pains, and the events are just sketched in. And memory is not a digital recorder. Often a group of people involved in the same event will come away with very different versions or recollections of it.

There's no problem with any of that, as long as we understand it. And there's no reason for it to cause trouble within the family (though it often will). Just as kids will have rifts because an aunt is at odds with an uncle, students will cause chaos championing the stories of their disagreeing sifus.

Most kids grow up, however, and most students learn, and hopefully as part of that process they gain self-confidence and self-worth and no longer feel the need to go to pick and choose sides within the family, to go to war for stories.

Those of us who have been on the internet a while have seen the original warriors (those who championed their sifus stories, sometimes to rediculous extremes) mellow and grow, in some cases still holding faith but no longer forcing it on others, in some cases losing faith but holding value, and in some cases moving on to other faiths. And we've seen new people come along, fresh and green and itching to start the fights up again, in some cases attacking those who, just a few years ago, were them. And sometime soon, there'll be newer, greener folk, attacking the older lot and the current lot too, going through their own growth process, some making it, some not. And the cycle will repeat, and repeat (until, hopefully, the adults start teaching and raising a generation of their own in numbers vast enough to all but overwhelm the problems of the past -- maybe a dream, but a nice one).

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

Uh Oh, I think I might be sliding into RR's 'green' categorie! I have a selection of different lineages to learn here in minneapolis and IMHO, as far as stories go, Leung Sheungs seems the most solid. He was Yip Mans first student. THat means for Yip Man to generate an income by takeing students he would have to have train his first few students well so that when they fought in public they made a good showing and people would be interested in learning Wing Chun.
Now that is not to say that what Yip Man taught to his later students is different, or not as good. I would hazard a guess that possibly it may have been a cut down more efficient way of learning. Later Yip Man could take the time to show his other students all the intricacies.
But for my goal, fighting in tournemants, I think the way Leung
Sheung possibly learned is best for me. I am learning from Carl Dechiara, who learned through Kenneth Chung, who learned from LS. We have added some things to supplement our learning since Leung Sheungs time but have kept the original training regimen.
What it comes down to is it works for me. I wouldnt say William Cheungs is not as good, or any o fthe others, just different, if it gets the job done, well, we just get more options!

[reneritchie]

r5a,

Sometimes early students learn the best for the reasons you stated, sometimes a teacher wants to protect their rice bowl and doesn't teach them as much so they don't go open a school up down the road and split the business. Sometimes the first person gets it, sometimes the richest, sometimes the longest lasting, sometimes the one with the most similar background, sometimes the brightest, sometimes the one with the closest personality, sometimes the most fiesty, and on and on. And sometimes a few can figure it out on their own regardless, while others squander. There are no guarantees. The latter part of your post is what I go by - if it suits you and you enjoy it. Doesn't matter how great it is if you hate it or can't do it and won't continue.

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

Right on RR. I wanted to make sure people knew that it was still my opinion, and my opinion has a habit of changing if given reasonable cause! :)
For me the last bit is definitely the most important. The first school I went to just wasnt for me. Cant say that the stuff was bad, just didnt suit me. the stuff I learn now suits me well, and so I will stick with it.
I always say in wing chun go out and try the different flavors then find out for yourself what one you like best!

[red5angel]

By the way RR, I dont know if I asked before but do you mind if I carry your quote around on my signature for a while? I thought it was very eloquent way of saying a good thing!

[Rolling_Hand]

--Meaning what exactly?

2+2=?

--I started a civil conversation with you,

Same here!!!

--are you insulting me now?

Hey brother,
Don't lose your cool. You should rethink your approach results in finding a better way!!! And I would like to ask the same question to you if you don't mind - Are you insulting William Cheung now?
If not, let bygones be bygones.

[Rolling_Hand]

--I wouldnt say William Cheung is not as good,

IMHO, William Cheung is 500 miles ahead of Leung Sheung and Kenneth Chung.

[red5angel]

RH - I would say great, I hope you are getting out of his program what you want to!

[byond]

HEY ROLLING HANDS,
QUICK QUESTION........YOU MENTIONED YOU DONT ACCEPT ALL OF SUM NUM/YKS STORY.......WHAT PARTS?? IM IN THE YIP MAN LINEAGE BUT LIKE DISCUSING HISTORY AND ALL THE POSSIBILITIES........NO FLAMES JUST DISCUSION...........B

[Rolling_Hand]

--those who championed their sifus stories, sometimes to rediculous extremes

Well said!!! In China many people have never been able to accept Sum Nung/YKS claims. However someone wrote a book to champion his sifu's stories!!!

[byond]

ACCEPT WHAT CLAIMS?????SPECIFICALY,,,,

[reneritchie]

RH - If you're referring to me and my book, I applied a critical ear to what I heard, and a critical eye to what I wrote. My Sijo and Sigung's claims are supportable, especially in China. I'd gladly put my book up against any other book of its kind in that regard.

If there's anything substantive and specific you'd care to discuss, I'm more than willing.

BTW- I continue to respond to you with consideration and respect. I would appreciate it if you would return the courtesy.

Rgds,

RR

[byond]

hey ren,
we have talked a bit, ive read lots of your literature....from my understanding all the info you mention is documented...in town records ect. have you heard of anybody disputing the historics before??

[gnugear]

So when did William Cheung's system "emerge"?

Was it indeed after Yip Man's death? Was it a slow evolution, or did it just "happen"?

[anerlich]

My first instructor, David Crook, trained with William Cheung in the 1960's in Canberra, ACT Australia.

My current instructor, Rick Spain, started with him in 1974 in Melbourne. Yip Man died in 1973 (or was it '72?).

David does his WC with a toes in neutral stance and bent wrist on the bon sao, Rick Spain with parallel stance and straght wrist bon.

David did tell me though that William's footwork has always been "a bit different to everyone else's".

I think "modern" TWC started when William Cheung moved to Melbourne, set up his HQ there, and began teaching full-time.

I didn't set out to insult William Cheung, just relating his stories and my opinion of them, and some situations in which he has played a role. If that makes him look bad, I'd say that was his fault, not mine.

Rolling Hand you question my motives re William Cheung, then cast your own aspersions on Sum Nung and Rene by association. Can you spell "hypocrite"? How about "troll"?

[Rolling_Hand]

--ACCEPT WHAT CLAIMS?????SPECIFICALY,,,,

Do you really want to know?

Anerlich,
--Rolling Hand you question my motives re William Cheung then cast your own aspersions on Sum Nung and Rene by association. Can you spell "hypocrite"? How about "troll"?

Brother, have patience....covering your bases hasn't done much to secure your position.
You could say anything about me and I don't mind. But please don't say any bad things about William Cheung - After all, he's still your grandmaster, show your respect!!!

[Rolling_Hand]

--I applied a critical ear to what I heard, and a critical eye to what I wrote.

Even you're all ears and all eyes, you wouldn't know who took Madonna's Cherry, would you?
A bump in your head sends you into a panic. Don't lose your cool, you'll see the light at end of the tunnel soon!

--My Sijo and Sigung's claims are supportable.

According to you, if your lips itches, you've got it. However, someone may learn more about the truth than you for taking an unpopular stand.

--especially in China

Different villages and towns also have their own stories - You've got your pick!!!

--I'd gladly put my book up against any other book of its kind in that regard.

In order to have a clearer idea, you may have to do something extraordinary for your book(S) - burn them!!! You hate giving up any ground, but it's the right thing to do. In other words, you might have a very good picture of Madonna in your book, but the real Madonna lives in Beverly Hill.

--I would appreciate it if you would return the courtesy.

Will do...do you want a box of Seez Candy or the wild and crazy underwear for X'mas?

[reneritchie]

Andrew - I've heard/read Cheung sifu in videos and books discuss how he made some developments himself, such as the elbow watching, the knife set (he said the original one he learned was not to his liking but I forget the reason, too short or something). I think that's only natural, though, as living things tend to evolve as time goes on (and I'd imagine the Aussie fighters might have had a difference or two from those in Foshan 8).

Byond - Yes, even a quick look of the stories in China will show they share many similarities across lineages, and much of the information is documented by the Foshan MA Association, with copies held by the older practitioners and the family members. They've been disputed from time to time. Yuen Jo-Tong (Yuen Kay-San's grandson) sometimes refuted the (sometimes anonymous) attacks with detailed responses and it never seemed to continue much after that. In general, however, my sigung says that wise people will look into it for themselves and make intelligent assessments, so the petty politics, posturing, and propaganda is not worth worrying about. The truly skilled folks never seem to bother with it, at any rate.

r5a - Not at all. I'm flattered, if not embarassed. At least it will remind me to follow my own advice, if nothing else, and perhaps others will contemplate it as well.

RH - Sorry you lost your center so easily again. If you have something of substance to discuss, I'll be ready, willing, and able. If not, well, I always prefered astronomy to astrology.

Rgds,

RR

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I see that some like to blow smoke to cover a lack of substance.

You know it is funny that some of the greatest masters were also the most courteous. Rather than spend time and energy trying to put someone else down, or build yourself up, why not just discuss the art. Every lineage has merit and has people who can make that approach work for them. While history can be important, sometimes truth gets lost in the mist.

Rather than argue and insult each other why not extend courtesy to one another. Agree to disagree.

Peace,

Dave

[Rolling_Hand]

Waar gaat u naar toe?
Wat is uw e-mail adres?

Roger(VP-EXT-110)
Ik vertrek niet later dan half twee

[Rolling_Hand]

Kunt u het spellen "Center"?
Onzin!!!
There's only one thing that can keep growing without nourishment - the human ego!!!

[reneritchie]

Ignorance can grow without nourishment. So can hunger. So can discontent, and many other things. Human's need ego, along with superego and id to be somewhat well balanced. When they lack even basic self-confidence (or system-confidence in MA), self-respect, and self-actualization, that seems to be when they resort to rudeness, trolling, and attacking others for some measure of attention and distraction. Sad and unfortunate. To make this WCK related, however, the self-reflection of SNT and the guidance of a good sifu can help instill better ways of interacting with the world and the self.

Rgds,

RR

[Rolling_Hand]

Ying & Yang - Any fool can tell the truth, but it requires a man of some sense to know how to lie well. LOL!!! In many ways, this reflected an innate desire to appease the unknown-"Mo Ying Da Ying", WCK indeed!!!

[Alpha Dog]

Why is his SLT so stiff/aggressive? Isn't relaxed, soft energy applicable in his version of Wing Chun?

[red5angel]

I have a question to go along with ADs' as well. All o fthe demos I have seen of his lineage, thier elbows tend to be out and not really in. Is this the way He does it or am I just seeing bad examples?!

[Rolling_Hand]

Do not always assume that the other fellow has intelleigence equals to yours. William Cheung may have more.

[Alpha Dog]

I am generally curious about his forms though and would like to understand the principles behind them.

[Rolling_Hand]

--All o fthe demos I have seen of his lineage

Who?

--thier elbows tend to be out and not really in

hahaha....I can see a little devil here!!!

--Is this the way He does it

He would tell you, email him...
http://www.cheungswingchun.com/

--or am I just seeing bad example?!

William Cheung or Kenneth Chung???

[Alpha Dog]

the principles are the same; how then are the forms so different?

[red5angel]

RH - not sure who they were there is a site for one of them....

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/

That would be a bad example of W. Cheung. I have seen Kenneth Chungs stuff and I am very comfortable with it.

[gnugear]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
--All o fthe demos I have seen of his lineage

Who?

--thier elbows tend to be out and not really in

hahaha....I can see a little devil here!!!

--Is this the way He does it

He would tell you, email him...
http://www.cheungswingchun.com/

--or am I just seeing bad example?!

William Cheung or Kenneth Chung???

I just sent an email to satisfy my own curiosity.
And the footage I saw was from http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp

[red5angel]

Great Gnugear, let me know what you find out. Mainly I am just curious as to if this is how they do things.

[Rolling_Hand]

--the principles are the same; how then are the forms so different?

Both Madonna and Cher are women; how then are thier DNA so different?

[Rolling_Hand]

--That would be a bad example of W. Cheung

Keep mum...the good news is that you don't want to lose that element of suprise from William Cheung.

--I have seen Kenneth Chungs stuff and I am very comfortable with it.

hahaha...a sitting duck runs in circles.

[anerlich]

Why is his SLT so stiff

It isn't. I don't know what you're looking at, but stiff ain't TWC.

/aggressive?

Because it is about fighting, not ballet dancing in tutus.

Isn't relaxed, soft energy applicable in his version of Wing Chun?

Yes. But Wing Chun, like Taiji, is soft AND hard, not just soft.

BTW, William Cheung has by far the best, most technically correct, most sensitive sticking hands I've ever felt, and I've tried a few lineages. YMMV, but try it yourself at one of his seminars. Y'ou'll have a few fractions of a second to appreciate his softness before being made to stagger backwards with your arms trapped towards the nearest wall while having your face gently peppered with palm strikes (unless you pi$$ him off with dumb questions beforehand).

RH, he's not my grandmaster. He's my teacher's teacher. My teacher has asked us not to refer to him (Rick Spain) as our master, so IMO I can hardly have a grandmaster. All students of YM who call themselves "Grandmasters" are self-appointed.

IMO the terms "master" and "grandmaster" have connotations of subservience and uncritical acceptance which unneccesarily complicate the relationship and impede the growth of both teacher and student. YMMV.

Oh, yeah, stting ducks don't run in circles, they sit. ;)

[Rolling_Hand]

--Oh, yeah, stting ducks don't run in circles, they sit. ;)

Can you spell the word "Water"?

[anerlich]

There you go. Since you've had several failed attempts at spelling my handle on this thread, I suggest you are poorly equipped to school or criticise anyone else in that regard.

Can you spell "swim"? "paddle"?

[Rolling_Hand]

If your head itches, you've got it.
But if God had wanted us to think with our wombs, why did he give us a brain?

Hm.....hahaha.......hum!!!

[Alpha Dog]

To your analogy:

Cher and Cher have identical DNA, is it any surprise that they are identical women? No, the suprise would be if they were not.

[yuanfen]

With which wig? What you see is what you get-no DNA samples
available at the moment.

[red5angel]

"That would be a bad example of W. Cheung "

That wasnt what I meant actually. I am not sure if that is an example of good or bad W.Cheung Lineage. I can say that from what I see on that video, his elbows are not in, unless he has flexibility problems, and he does not seem very relaxed, but that too can be decieving. However what I see in the video goes against many of the things I have come to understand about Wing Chun. Is this an good, accurate example of his style?

Anerlich, I mean no disrespect to W. Cheung, I have never met the man or felt his hands. I am only curious as to the details of how he does his stuff. I have heard a lot of good things about him. I fthe line of questioning seems beligerant, I apologize.

Wow, a whole discussion string almost on ducks! Am I still in the wing chun forum or have I somehow slipped to thousand animals style, or maybe just thousand idiots style........... Really though its so deep, sadly, I had to walk in circles for 5 straight minutes way back in 3rd grade, and so RH, you need to catch up.

[Rolling_Hand]

--That wasnt what I meant actually.

LOL!!! hahaha...hahaha....hahaha...
Men doesn't live by words alone, despite the fact that sometimes he has to eat them.

--I am not sure if that is an example of good or bad W. Cheung lineage.

I am sure that you're filled with pride-"Kenneth Chung's wet noodle WC" hahaha...

[Rolling_Hand]

--With which wig?

Augustine Fong, that's for sure!!!

--What you see is what you get-no DNA samples available at the moment.

Yeah, read my mind!!!

[Rolling_Hand]

You have lips; one ^ & one down.

[Alpha Dog]

Stop looking at my lips and listen:

Cher and Pamela Anderson -- same DNA? That would be a surprise.

Sony Bono and Pamela Anderson, even bigger surprise.

[Rolling_Hand]

Can you spell "Onzin"?

[Alpha Dog]

It isn't nonsense, RH. Anyway I was only asking why if the principles are the same that the appearances are so different. You don't need to answer, I can find my way.

Cheers!

[Rolling_Hand]

Leung Jan > Leung Bik > Yip Man > William Cheung ; TWC

Leung Jan > Chan Wah Shun > Yip Man > Others ; WC

??? > YKS(?) > Sum Nung(???) ; San Sik WC

[yuanfen]

RH's cultism & hypocrisy and ideological trolling again.
There was only one Yip Man IMO and he integrated the influences on him in his art. Different people picked up different things and brewed their own teas. Your choice on teas. Make mine Golden Orange Pekoe from Darjeeling with my wc.

[Rolling_Hand]

hey brother, you're the wrong DJ.

I prefer Frank Sinatra's "My Way" to "Killing me softly with your song".

[yuanfen]

Sinatra was ok for bourgeois teenagers and later in their nostalgia... but his range was limited...his was the most pipsqueaky of the better kinown renderings of Ol Man River. Ok for some ballads for the has been be bop crowd. More of marketing than talent..

[reneritchie]

Wong Wah-Bo & Dai Fa Min Kam > Fok Bo-Chuen & Fung Siu-Ching > Yuen Kay-San (& Cheung Bo) > Sum Nung (You San Sik, You Kuen To)

(http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung)

RR

[Rolling_Hand]

There are three sides to every story - yours, mine, and all that lie between....hum!!!

[red5angel]

Does anyone here study the Willieam Cheung lineage of wing chun? If you do, are you capable of giving me your opinion on if his wing chun is practiced with elbows in or out? Do they do their SLT slowly or quickly?
All of the examples I have seen of his art show these tendancies, and I am curious to know if this is the way W. Cheung teaches it. I have heard many good things about him and am curious to hear from someone who practices his lineage.

[raving_limerick]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Sinatra was ok for bourgeois teenagers and later in their nostalgia... but his range was limited...his was the most pipsqueaky of the better kinown renderings of Ol Man River. Ok for some ballads for the has been be bop crowd. More of marketing than talent..

Completely. He was just a pretty boy with mob tendencies. :D I can't knock ol' Blue Eyes too much 'cause I really do dig his slower ballads, but I think Ella blew him out of the water as a jazz vocalist. Much better pitch, versatility, and vocal control, plus she collaborated with Joe Pass.

But anyhow, back to the subject at hand... Red5angel, or anybody else, are there any other video examples of William Cheung's lineage out there on the internet? I just want to compare to the other examples posted in the thread. Any help?

[Phil Redmond]

You wrote:
>>Does anyone here study the William Cheung lineage of wing chun? If you do, are you capable of giving me your opinion on if his wing chun is practiced with elbows in or out? Do they do their SLT slowly or quickly?
All of the examples I have seen of his art show these tendancies, and I am curious to know if this is the way W. Cheung teaches it. I have heard many good things about him and am curious to hear from someone who practices his lineage.<<

The SLT form you saw on the wingchunkwoon site was performed by me. The elbows in TWC are placed outside of the body so that any force exerted against the arms will be transmitted away from the body. In answer to your hard soft issue. The form has multiple dynamics. Strikes are done with an exhalation and with considerable force. The form was done in a time frame to allow minimum download time.
I hope I've answered your questions.

[red5angel]

RL - I will take a look, I am sure I have seen another one or two on the internet......

[red5angel]

Phil, thanks for your response! It would seem some have taken my question as offensive when I was mearly curious. Your web site is good as well!
Phil, Can I ask, have you studied any other wing chun from any other lineage? If so how does it compare to what you study now?
Understand, I offer no criticism here, your knowledge is much deeper then mine, and although we may do some things differently that is not as important to me as why we do them differently. Myself and a Hung Gar practitioner do things differently, but neither of us can be said to be doint 'it' wrong! aslo understand I wasnt singling you specifically out, your website just offers the most comprehensive videos on the web of W. Cheungs lineage.

[anerlich]

Does anyone here study the Willieam Cheung lineage of wing chun?

I thought I'd made it fairly clear that I did.

are you capable of giving me your opinion on if his wing chun is practiced with elbows in or out?

Yes I am capable. Willing? Your phrasing of the question doesn't exactly put me in a cooperative mood, so back off a little.

Define "in" and "out". The elbow is drawn *toward* the centre where appropriate (fuk, tan, etc.) but perhaps not to the same degree as with other sub-styles. Drawing the elbow in too far will compromise rather than strengthen the structure IMO.

Do they do their SLT slowly or quickly?

As compared to what? You're probably looking at 4-6 measured breath cycles during the outward extension of tan and fuk in the first section. We don't subscribe to the "longer is better" or "Yip Man did SLT for an hour sometimes, so I should too" schools. I've seen excellent practitioners who did SLT even quicker and argue that the slowness thing in this section is a complete waste of time. I don't totally agree, but then I don't think my lineage is at the extreme end of any spectrum either.

Generally our forms are practiced at three speeds: slow for precision, medium for flow, fast for speed.

TWC arguably has a larger, more extended and open structure than some other YM sub-styles.

I haven't seen the video you're talking about, and don't intend to. Attempting to judge anyone's style or abilities on a short video clip you downloaded from the web is a futile endeavour. Go visit a TWC school if you want your questions answered.

[red5angel]

Anerlich, no offense is intended! I am just doing my studying, trying to understand the different lineages and how they go about their WC.
I would love to visit a TWC school but as far as I know there ar enone in my area. One of these days maybe.
Anyway, just trying to get some ideas of how others do it, thanks for explaining things from your point of view, it is appreciated!

[Rolling_Hand]

Many years ago CLF master Chiu Yin Pang told us this...
Since 1950 I've had known Sum Nung in China, as being a CLF martial artist myself, I've never been able to accept Sum Nung's claim as being a traditional wing chun master. Over the years, Sum Nung's had developed his San Sik wing chun. It has bits and pieces of other KF systems - Fai Jee Gung, Hei Gung...etc. Even his mook jong has no resemblance to the real wing chun in Futshan.

Jealousy isn't a feeling anyone wants to admit to. Instead of undermining the Leung Bik/YipMan/williamCheung's TWC, ask yourself what you can learn from this great art of TWC. Recently someone wrote a book to champion his own history and air rumors to put down others. People can talk themselves in and out of anything. If things add up to your favor , good; if not, there's a problem; human ego!!!

[anerlich]

Recently someone wrote a book to champion his own history and air rumors to put down others

You could be talking about "My Life with Wing Chun" by William Cheung. But somehow I doubt that!

[Phil Redmond]

Yes, I have studied other 'versions' of WC. I think I've studied with every WC sifu that taught in NYC in the 70's and 80's...grin. You can check the foreward and history links on my site for more info. BTW, I was a WC sifu when I met Sifu Cheung in 1983.
No worries, I don't mind answering questions regarding WC.

[yuanfen]

One can remain open minded on the existence of leung Bik and his influence on Yip Man without accepting the TWC version of the story. The principals--Leung Bik and Yip Man are gone--- and neither Cheung, Wang Kiu etc were around. So many wing chun histories today are lineage stories. Arguing about them wont help anyone's wing chun development- no matter what line they
belong to. Best to analyse the legacy of principles and motion that
Yip Man left behind. You takes your pick and do the best you can...
and be civil to others- you just might learn something.

[raving_limerick]

Originally posted by red5angel
RL - I will take a look, I am sure I have seen another one or two on the internet......

Thanks very much Red, but you don't have to go through all that trouble.:D

I was just curious if anyone else had any links handy. Thanks all the same, though. It's greatly appreciated.

[gnugear]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Many years ago CLF master Chiu Yin Pang told us this...
Since 1950 I've had known Sum Nung in China, as being a CLF martial artist myself, I've never been able to accept Sum Nung's claim as being a traditional wing chun master. Over the years, Sum Nung's had developed his San Sik wing chun. It has bits and pieces of other KF systems - Fai Jee Gung, Hei Gung...etc. Even his mook jong has no resemblance to the real wing chun in Futshan.


What is CLF? Choy Li Fut?

[Rolling_Hand]

--One can remain open minded on the existence of leung Bik and his influence on Yip Man without accepting the TWC version of the story.

It could be a biggest mistake in your life without accepting the TWC version of the story.

The great secret of searching the truth is to treal all disasters as incidents, and none of incidents as disasters.

[Rolling_Hand]

CLF = Choi Li Fut kung fu

[yuanfen]

My own brief take on the question. Not representing any one or speaking for anyone.
1. No one got all that Yip Man knew. He took with him to the grave
surely much more .
2. What he left behind in the tangible aspects of our art is simply a superb instance of a martial art-subjectively the best that I have seen. I respect those who sincerely follow other martial arts.
3. Yip Man told many folks himself that he combined what he learned from Chan Wah Son and that line with what he learned from Leung Bik. Yip Man is entitled to his story. Its credible.And 'everyone has a story"(borrowed wisdom, you know<g>). William Cheung has his story-the detals appear to change from time to time. Do I believe his story? -No. It fails many standards of common sense.
Of course devotees, can believe many things.Is he a good fighter? Most probably. There are lots of good fighters, some not even in wing chun and some without any kung fu training.TWC is whatever Cheung added on to the exposure to wing chun that he got asa teenager.Should someone learn TWC? One should -
if they are seeking kung fu instruction-simply find the best hands on wing chun teacher they can find in any lineage and even in any traditional kung fu.
5. Anyone trying to present a definitive history of wing chun will sooner or later have egg on their face.
6. there are lots of interesting wing chun stories- i am sure new ones will keep springing up.
7. So what are we left with?... the subject of wing chun gung fu.attempts to understand it'sprinciples, analysis of its structure,
functions, strategies, practice and its proper application...our attempts to find good instruction and learning what we can and conversations...
8. the above seven ---are my considered opinions...not "facts".
If you think that any story wing chun or otherwise is fact-good luck with your fantasy..
(sorry for any typos- have to go and tell some stories))

[reneritchie]

> Since 1950 I've had known Sum Nung in China, as being a CLF martial artist myself,

I'm not sure what relevence being a CLF martial artist is in offering expert opinion on WCK. Nor is his own bias clear (he may have lost a bet to a SNWCK practitioner and been required to give away free haircuts for life, who knows?)

The Fung's, the Cho's, and others who are expert in WCK have said very complimentary things about Yuen Kay-San and Sum Nung, their system, and their skills.

> I've never been able to accept Sum Nung's claim as being a traditional wing chun master.

Everyone has an opinion. Some will have them on my sigung, some will have them on yours. Most WCK masters don't have much nice to say about each other. Many opinions are uninformed.

Sum Nung's being training in WCK since 1938, teaching since the 1940s. That's traditional in and of itself. He was also teaching during a time when Ng Jung-So, Yip Man, Wong Jing, Fung Chun, and others were teaching. Since pretty much all WCK from Foshan of that period is generally consistent, it paints all of WCK with a rather broad brush.

> Over the years, Sum Nung's had developed his San Sik wing chun.

Since he is primarily concerned with application, he has continued to develop his system throughout his 64 years in the art. However, it's difficult to believe anyone with knowledge of Chinese language would consider it "San Sik" wing chun, since it makes considerable use of Kuen To. Leung Jan's Gulao does make exclusive use of San Sik, so maybe they got their branches mixed up.

> It has bits and pieces of other KF systems - Fai Jee Gung, Hei Gung...etc.

Fai Jee Gung is from WCK. Hei Gung is from one of his Sigung who converted to Taoism and felt bad that he'd taught violence. To make ammends and try to balance the scales, he taught Sum Nung Hei Gung. At some point, wooden dummy, 6.5 pole, etc. were integrated into most of the WCK branches. Nothing new there.

> Even his mook jong has no resemblance to the real wing chun in Futshan.

While the sequence is different, the movements in those sequences are pretty much the same as every other branch of Wing Chun Kuen. And this is true throughout WCK (same basic moves, different order of movement). So again, this is paints all of Foshan WCK badly.

BTW RH - How old are you? (serious question)

RR

[Rolling_Hand]

--If you think that any story wing chun or otherwise is fact-good luck with your fantasy..

Keep mum...good luck with your fantasy; Augustine Fong's mook yan jong!!! hahaha.... The ability to accept responsibility is the measure of the man. Sorry to say, you aren't the one.

[reneritchie]

Not sure why Fong sifu's dummy was singled out. Many people develop and change their systems. William Cheung said he didn't like the old knife form so he came up with one that was better in his opinion. Others have made changes in SNT, CK, BJ, or one or all of their sets. Some of their teachers did too. As did some of their teachers. Yip Man sifu's dummy and knives, while always containing the same content, seem to have changed in organization as well during the course of his teaching career, not to mention a couple changes he's reported to have made in his SNT to make it flow more to his liking. At what point in time do you take a snapshot and insist it covers the entire continuum? Do you drive the same car Henry Ford produced at the turn of the century? Do you use the same physics text they used in 1850? Nature's pretty clear about the consequences of stagnation. Leung Jan made a pretty radical change when he re-sequenced his WCK for teaching in Gulao, and they seem to have turned out pretty darn good.

Maybe someone doesn't like Fong sifu's changes, or Leung Ting's, or William Cheung's, or Hawkins Cheung's, or Yip Man's, or Sum Nung's. That's their right. Maybe as they grow more experienced and knowledgeable themselves, their opinions will mature and maybe change, or maybe stay the same. In the end, though, as much they have the right to their opinion, others have the right to like the changes, enjoy different things, hold different opinions.

BTW - Pretty amazing that the language used in RH's posts (Emin Bozo, Turkey, fake Wooden Dummy, etc.) match so exactly with many of the anonymous flames on the former VTAA board.

RR

[dezhen2001]

Rene: i just noticed that 2 :D

david

[yuanfen]

Not much new. Same old same old repetitive trolling and spamming in both forums under different names... the VTAA has no controls on names used. You know the old logic--- if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and sits like a duck-it is a duck.
Thats why he is such an expert on sitting ducks---quacks and waddles with the same party line he has swallowed -but doing it badly-listing to port side.After this he may try to list starboard.
The net brings out these anonymous folks who say the the same things over and over again in different venues. But trolls and spammers enjoy attention in their loneliness. Poor chap. Too bad that he considers himself TWC's designated secret weapon!!!
Boring!!

[Rolling_Hand]

You do not destroy an idea by killing people, you replace it with a better one; a la rene's rumors. It's a downer playing devil's advocate. Can you talk yourself in or out of anything???
The Sun would have disappeared long ago, had it happened to be within reach of predatory RR's hands. History balances the frustration of how far we have to go with the satisfaction of how far we come. It teaches us tolerance for the human stortcomings and inperfections. The trouble with people is that too many people who have half a mind to write a book, half a mind to air rumors.

--BTW RH - How old are you? (serious question)

BTW RR - Do you have a beautiful sister? (serious question)

[Rolling_Hand]

--Too bad that he considers himself TWC's designated secret weapon!!!

Relax. You may feel burned at first, but you'll come to realize the value of the lesson - Leung Bik is a gentleman who never goes where he is not welcome.