What is more important

[Sihing73]

Hi Guys,

Been having some time on my hands and still will only be posting sporadically. Still have a question I am interested in getting responses from.

Some lineages opt for a strong stable stance. Sometimes demonstrations are given of absorbing force and directing it downward into the ground. When sparring with some of these people they are almost immovable unless they want to be.

On the other hand others opt for a softer more mobile stance. They accept almost all pressure given by being mobile. They turn or step rather than absorb. Some of these proponents can be moved all around a room but never touched. They keep their "structure" by repositioning not trying to absorb.

Now I will be the first to admit that both approaches have merit. Also the best may be a combination of the two ways. But, out of curiousity and boredom I wanted to get some feedback from the others out here.

Peace,

Dave

[raving_limerick]

I would think that at least familiarizing yourself with both would be the best option, as you never know how fast, agile, or powerful your opponent might be. It's always nice to have options.

[kj]

I always assume my opponent will be more agile, fast and powerful. And younger, bigger, and stronger with more endurance. It's the underlying premise of my gung fu.

[Alpha Dog]

Sounds like the underlying premise to more than just your gung fu, Kathy Jo! :D Is there a cougar form of Wing Chun? Where's RR?

[kungfu cowboy]

I would think that developing the strong stance will help any movement and power generation. There's no reason you can't be both strong and mobile.

[red5angel]

I am going to have to go with both if you can manage it. Obviously that would be optimal, but if for some reason you couldnt, I would go with a strong stance and structure.

[Joakim Svensson]

I would go for the Strong stance and structure.
Without this you will have major problem
to deal with someone that do have this.
When they go in you will start peddelling backward
and not being able to launch any attack. And even
if you did manage to do something there will not
be much power behind it.

[reneritchie]

AD - Cougar WC? Maybe in the Pacific Northwest? Where's RR? About 100 of them lurking around some trolling boards last time I looked ;)

Dave - IMHO, pick the right tool for the right job. In general, though, Wing Chun Kuen borrows from the 36 Strategies to say "Yee Yat Toi Lo", and one of our pillars is "Yee Ching Jai Dong".

Rgds,

RR

[JasBourne]

In general, though, Wing Chun Kuen borrows from the 36 Strategies to say "Yee Yat Toi Lo", and one of our pillars is "Yee Ching Jai Dong".

Thanks. I'll remember that next time I'm in a room full of non-english speakers. :D

[jesper]

There is a time and place for everything.
If you focus on only one approach, you are easily overpowered in combat.

[reneritchie]

Jas - the former is to let the opponent fatigue themselves while you conserve, the latter is to use stillness to overcome movement.

Rgds,

RR

[Gandolf269]

I would like to think I have a "solid" stance while at the same time flexable enough to turn or step as my opponents force dictates. But after working out with my Sifu the other day, I see that it is neither of these. :D I'll keep working towards my goal and hopefully some day .......

[Sihing73]

Hi All,

So far it seems that the vast majority think the combination approach is best. Seems like we like the best of both worlds.

Any ideas on the most effective methods for training for both without sacrificing one or the other?

Peace,

Dave

I really just wanted to see my post rise to the top again, selfish aint I? :rolleyes:

[kj]

Any ideas on the most effective methods for training for both without sacrificing one or the other?

Seems to me the main elements of the typical 'curriculum' have it covered.


Siu Nim Tau - performed slowly (15-20 minutes minimum) and with precision
All the other sets - practiced with precision (they serve as training, not just memory joggers about the contents of the art)
Chi Sau - Lots and lots!!
Solo exercises including wall bag work (sand), stepping, and turning practice
Practice with other stylists sometimes to challenge your paradigm
Progressing in the elements, while keeping balance and not forgoing one element in favor of the others (e.g., don't just do chi sau all the time and forget to practice the sets)
A lifetime of practice


IMHO, anyway.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Looks like I helped to push your thread way down. :(

[reneritchie]

Dave, KJ,

Maybe I can help push it back up? (At least the ever present trolls might zero in on it this way).

Good points. I'd say again, however, that rather than just slowly, SNT needs to be practiced *correctly* (some could do a real slow, real incorrect SNT as well). With focus on relaxation, posture, path, point(s) of power, position, etc. it can be a lot of work (and probably slow until years, and years of training make it really internalized and you can maintain the same intent and focus regardless of pace).

With CK and BJ, precision is very important, as is even more relaxation as you have to maintain everything from SNT but with turning, stepping, and overturning.

Chi Sao lots and lots, with a good amount of San Sao so you can get those bridges to stick to in the first place.

Lien Gung Sik (Training Work Forms) as much as possible to cultivate the attributes and details in between sets and partners.

And a lifetime or two of polish!

Rgds,

RR

[Axiom]

What's Poland got to do with it? :confused:

;)

[Alpha Dog]

In other words, 86% don't know what "no feet, no hands" means, or the difference between "more" and "most," or what "better" means.

Keep on practicing that chain punch!

[red5angel]

AD -p Why dont you enlighten us 86% then? :)

RR - I would agree with you, especially on SLT, although "correctly" I think is often a matter of interpretation, even when some people pay lips service to the basic tenets of our art. Precision is indeed the key!

[Alpha Dog]

Well, I could do that. Or, any of the inquisitive variety could:

1) Think about it,
2) As his Sifu, or
3) A combination of 1) and 2).

You decide which is best.

[Rolling_Hand]

hahaha....
When a thing has been said and well said, have no scruple;take it and back to work out!!!

[red5angel]

Sorry guys word games do not interest me. I come here to discuss Wing chun and all the different aspects of it, not to be "Challenged" by what someone either missing the diction or the knowledge to actually explain the things they say.

No offense to anyone in particular just saying I enjoy talking to those who want to talk instead of mumbling under thier breath small wisdoms from the tops of thier mountain tops. The rest of you should start to wonder anytime why you dont get the reactions you are looking for except from each other.

[Alpha Dog]

Can I borrow a spoon from you?

[reneritchie]

Worrying about spoon-feeding assumes you're the parent and they're the baby, which may or may not be true. If true, they may be at the stage where they need some food to be spoon fed lest they die. If not true, you may be missing out on a golden opportunity to get some corrections of your own, either through self-re-analysis as you go through the explination process (similar to the process you go through when you first start teaching), or through correction if it turns out you're the baby.

If what you can explain is really so far beyond someone else, they won't "get" it anyway and you'll still benefit from going through the process. If what you can explain is really so far off-base, at least some form of peer-review and exchange will give you a chance to re-examine it with some perspective.

Just as in WCK, we're generally taught not to assume we're the strongest, fastest, most enduring person in the confrontation, we shouldn't assume we have all the answers, nor that the answers we do have are correct. That is, if we want a chance to transcend.

Bottom line, on a discussion board, not discussing is akin to sitting on the bench while everyone else Chi Sao's.

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

RR - Right on brother.

[Alpha Dog]

You can do whatever you want, RR, I have no objection, except to say that the Philosophy of Wing Chun/Life you espouse is your own, and you aren't immune to making a host of assumptions.

[reneritchie]

AD - Very true. Care to elaborate? 8)

(BTW- Roy, your post on the other thread is something I wasn't considering and a very good point too. I'll have to put that into the next iterative cycle 8)

Rgds,

RR

[Rolling_Hand]

--you aren't immune to making a host of assumptions

LOL...guess who's coming for dinner?

--Can I borrow a spoon from you?

Hey brother,
The star of riches is shining upon you. Be my guest...take it!!!
RH's spoon - IF the grass is greener in the other fellow's garden, let him worry about cutting it.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Worrying about spoon-feeding assumes you're the parent and they're the baby, which may or may not be true.

-- Who is doing the worrying Rene? What is your assumption here?

If true, they may be at the stage where they need some food to be spoon fed lest they die.

-- Lest they die? Are you assuming a Jesus Christ Pose here RR?


If not true, you may be missing out on a golden opportunity to get some corrections of your own, either through self-re-analysis as you go through the explination process (similar to the process you go through when you first start teaching), or through correction if it turns out you're the baby.

-- I can think about problems on my own time, and that is all I have ever requested of anyone else -- that, and that they seek out real expert advice about something they claim to be interested in, instead of looking to internet spoon-feeders who may or may not be knowledgeable.

If what you can explain is really so far beyond someone else, they won't "get" it anyway and you'll still benefit from going through the process.

-- Again, you make a mistaken assumtion about intent RR: my honest belief is that no one out here is beyond getting anything.<right here is the part that Dave edited out, where I made fun of RR's comics and suggested he enjoyed stifling others' freedom of thought because it boosts their dependance on his 'insight' and helps him sell books (AD)>.

If what you can explain is really so far off-base, at least some form of peer-review and exchange will give you a chance to re-examine it with some perspective.

-- I never offer insight where I don't know what I am talking about, and please note that I ask a lot of questions just to hear the thoughts of others and, maybe, see them develop into a discussion. In this particular instance, I was commenting on my own words, not speaking on behalf of WC, and I do claim knowledge/ownership over what I say/think -- do you?

Just as in WCK, we're generally taught not to assume we're the strongest, fastest, most enduring person in the confrontation, we shouldn't assume we have all the answers, nor that the answers we do have are correct. That is, if we want a chance to transcend.

-- Are we? Yet another mistake in a serious of high-sounding yet airy statements. What you are taught/teach didn't come down from the mountain with you. And again, you are wrong to assume/imply that I am a knowitall like yourself. Transcend? Do you see yourself as WC's PB Shelley, RR?

Bottom line, on a discussion board, not discussing is akin to sitting on the bench while everyone else Chi Sao's.

-- Bottom line, encouraging thoughtful people to stop thinking is a selfish, ego-feeding crime committed by people desperate for love admiration and attention.

Rgds,

-- All the best!!

RR

[yuanfen]

That poll was no brainer IMO...predictably most people will pick the right multiple choice answer... both strong stance and mobility.. Also i like doing the first part of slt slowly, but I also like doing it correctly---they are not mutually contradictory.

[Alpha Dog]

Of course it was -- after all, a Baker bakes, a Bricklayer lays bricks....

[reneritchie]

AD:

-- Who is doing the worrying Rene? What is your assumption here?

You, among others. No assumption was needed.

-- Lest they die? Are you assuming a Jesus Christ Pose here RR?

Nope. As a member of a community, we have a responsibility to that community. Die was anologus to spoon feeding.

-- I can think about problems on my own time, and that is all I have ever requested of anyone else -- that, and that they seek out real expert advice about something they claim to be interested in, instead of looking to internet spoon-feeders who may or may not be knowledgeable.

The internet is just a tool, the message board just an environment. Real experts are relative. Non internet non-spoon feeders may or may not be knowledgeable. Critical thinking is needed in all situations, but thinking has to occur first. Reading can help prompt thinking, even reading something which may or may not be from a knowledgeable expert and may or may not be correct (because you can ask why?) BTW - If you really believe the above, why participate at all?

-- Again, you make a mistaken assumtion about intent RR

Again, no assumption needed.

-- I never offer insight where I don't know what I am talking about, and please note that I ask a lot of questions just to hear the thoughts of others and, maybe, see them develop into a discussion. In this particular instance, I was commenting on my own words, not speaking on behalf of WC, and I do claim knowledge/ownership over what I say/think -- do you?

How do you know that you know what you're talking about? A claim ownership over what I say. It's not always my own personal opinion (there's seldom black and white answers, and to understand something its often beneficial to be able to discuss multiple "sides" of it. And, of course, opinion grows and sometimes changes with knowledge and experience). Again, its a process, similar to Chi Sao. Sometimes you can even put yourself into a bad position to see how/if you can recover.

-- Are we? Yet another mistake in a serious of high-sounding yet airy statements. What you are taught/teach didn't come down from the mountain with you. And again, you are wrong to assume/imply that I am a knowitall like yourself. Transcend? Do you see yourself as WC's PB Shelley, RR?

We are, no mistake there. "knowitall" is a little childish, don't you think? Do we aspire to know or to not know? Is the culture of mediocrity and the frowning on the pursuit of knowledge really so pervasive now? If we don't want to transcend, why bother? Do we really want to get worse as we go along? To get bound?

-- Bottom line, encouraging thoughtful people to stop thinking is a selfish, ego-feeding crime committed by people desperate for love admiration and attention.

So why do it?

(Note, this reply was written smile on face. I think we actually agree with many of the core points, just might have different experiences and ways of going about things.).

Rgds,

RR

[Alpha Dog]

Indeed, why do you?

[red5angel]

AD

"I can think about problems on my own time, and that is all I have ever requested of anyone else -- that, and that they seek out real expert advice about something they claim to be interested in, instead of looking to internet spoon-feeders who may or may not be knowledgeable"

So this is your social hour????

[Alpha Dog]

You must really hate WC Red5 -- why?

[red5angel]

I love Wing chun, as I have said before it is my life. You do not practice 2-4 hours a day what you hate. You do not spend time on a forum on the internet gleening wisdom from those who have it if you dont.
Its an odd conclusion you come to since I am the one who spends more time talking about Wing Chun.

[Alpha Dog]

Talking, whining -- cha bu duo ba!

[red5angel]

I am done mouth boxing with you AD. You have proven yourslef the superior 'boxer'. If you pass through my area, give a holler and we can meet for a freindly match, I am always up to a learning experience no matter how much more 'intelligent' my partner is. I have one rule though, once the fight starts, talking stops.

[Alpha Dog]

By the way, be sure to visit my website, okay? Cheers.

[reneritchie]

AD - I just mun sao, dude. Back to the WCK discussion...

RR

[Alpha Dog]

Wo de fang jian yi ying go men le, ni yo zai jiang she ma fei hua ne?

[yuanfen]

protidin baisakh

Its always spring!!