Two general tendencies in Pak Mei practice in the world

[EAZ]

Hi,

I was very interested by an element of a thread on Kung Fu Online. A certain Yum Cha said "Vietnamese PM, Guangzhou PM and YKM are the closest to each other. I think that perhaps had to do with the early versus the later students of CLC. What you reckon?"

I practice VN lineage Pei Mei and have visited 3 schools of Pak Mei (Pei Mei) originating apparently from lineages that come from Hong Kong. These lineages did not have all the forms I was taught, and in general had less forms. The exception was either the Eagle Claw form which one Pak Mei school taught or the Dragon crossing bridge... (Lung Mun Bic Da I think, I don't have my notes handy. )-these 2 forms are absent from Vietnam Pei Mei.

Anyways, based on the information on Pei Mei web sites and conversations with different lineages, I think there is some ring of truth in Yum Cha's hypothesis.

I notice that:
a. HK schools have much less forms and 2 forms never heard of in Guagnzhou/Vietnam schools- hereafter refered to as "non HK" (I know nothing of YKM and never heard of it until a few weeks ago.)

b. HK schools practice all movements nearly standing up and stance is always very closed. The "non HK" practice forms in much lower stances (fighting is of course much higher); also, although there is constant usage of Rising Sinking Swallow Spitting principle, it is (relatively speaking for a Southern style) more open.

c. The HK schools make no theoretical usage of 5 animal theory. They simply state that Tiger and Leopard are animals that Pak Mei is based on. Non HK schools apprently have, on altar of Pei Mei the inscription regarding 5 animals and make active use of this Shaolin inspired theory(he practiced dragon, snake and crane and mastered tiger and leopard...). Although 1 HK origin school mentions 5 animals, it is only in passing and apparently it is not really a part of curriculum.

- As a side note, the 5 animals clearly belonging to Shaolin / buddhiste martial arts, this must be taken into consideration when discussing the "is Pei Mei Taoiste or Buddhist?" question. As Taoist martial arts do not make any use of animals (discounting certainCHi Kung exercices bu these are not 5 animals of Shaolin) this adds to the puzzle does it not?-

Anyways, as it stands now, I sway in favour of the opinion that there is a clear difference between post 1949 Chung Ly Chuyen (CLC)in Honk Kong and pre 1949 CLC. Why, and what this difference means however is not altogether clear.

Could someone constructively disprove this theory or perhaps add more substance?


(Let it be clear that my only desire is to understand, not to judge. I do not want to fall into sterile discussions regarding "orignal Pak Mei", "inner student this" or "direct lineage that". I only wish to enlarge my understanding to better my practice).

All the best,

EAZ

[sanjia]

It is very interesting that different sources have different 'syllabus' for learning 'Pak Mei'.
Here's mine in case anyone's interested:
Fistforms:
- (Lung Ying Ma Bo Chung Chui)
- (Lung Ying Sup Luk Dong)
- (Lung Ying Sam Tong Gwo Kiu)
- Pak Mei Jik Bo
- Pak Mei Gou Bo Toui
- Pak Mei Man Fu (tranlsated by my teacher as 'Fierce Tiger steps'
- (Lung Ying Mor Kiu)
- Pak Mei 18 Deflect Palm
- Pak Mei Man Fu Chut Lum (translated as above as 'Fierce Tiger Comes out of Forest'

This fusion of Pak Mei and Lung Ying seems to be the 'norm' in the UK, at least from Ho Bun Un lineage. I notice that the Netherlands branch is also similar in its way.
This all from Sifu who were taught by CLC.
The Lung Ying Jing Jung teachers here say that second generation Lung Ying Sifu (from CLC & LYG) teaches as above but third generation (mostly Lam family) teach only Lung Ying, and having seen their classes there is definitely no Pak Mei influence.

There you go, my tuppence from the UK.

Mark

[sui-fuw]

san you cantonese?how do you hoi tee in sap batt mor quil?its simple enough if you know how?and also how many movements it meng fu chut lam?simple enough if you know how many? :D :D :D

[feldor]

Greetings,

If you look carefully at CLC's students, you will see that each was taught according to his own ablility. Cheung Lai Chuan was known to change and refine the Bai Mei he taught as he himself learned more, or the students needs changed.

There is also the trust element. How well did he trust each student? (i.e. teaching the more advanced concepts)

You might also ask Fiercest Tiger or Tnwingtsun also.

This is just an opinion, not fact. No fighting Sui-Few... :D

Charles

[sanjia]

Sui-fuw

1)No I am not Cantonese
2)I don't know I haven't learn either yet.


Now its my turn.
1)Who are you?
2)What do you study or teach?
3)What is Hoi tee? (we don't use an awful lot of the terminology, just learn what we are taught, how we are taught it.) I haven't come across this, or if I have i know it under a different term.

Mark

[EAZ]

Yes there are different forms in different branches of the school. This is relatively a minor concern, as long as theory is respected. Most importantly however IMHO is the fact that many schools practice all movements from a virtually standing position (Chatanooga school, Ly man Tak students, even NY Kwong a bit as well)and very closed guard keeping shoulders rolled forward 100% of time etc. and other schools such as in Vietnam and the GuangShou school from what I can ascertain on the web site, where stances are much lower ...

[Shaolin Master]

there is no Hoi Tee in SipBatmo.

[sui-fuw]

san,then why speak for the uk pak mei?sorry if i sound abrupt
:)

shaolin masterb@tor,there is "hoi tee" in every form,it means "to open" the particular form you toss whip,what kind of k.f do you learn,is it to lick your si-fu's chochlate star fish,you shirt lifter? :D :D :D :D :D sorry your just sh!t not to know this.

[Shaolin Master]

of course....

[Kevin Barkman]

Hello,

I do both Lung Ying and Bak Mei. I have personally found (up to this point in my evolution within these arts) that;

Bak Mei - less rooting - higher stance - faster (and definatly fewer)techniques, more focused, more "external" More "fierce" and less compassionate. Better suited to thin, smaller body types.

Lung Ying - more powerful and rooted, gliding, not as fast, more technique, more "internal". More compassionate, less fierce ("gentle in manner, resolute in execution" - take note nonbelievers!). Better suited to heavier (yes...like me), taller body types.

If as someone above mentioned, that the "trend" is to merge these two arts, then what is Bak Mei contributing to Lung Ying (I would agree that Gow Bo Toy at least is unique to Bak Mei, and an excellent contribution)?!?

Perhaps these arts appeal to different persons based on a specific body type / mental attitude. I don't know....maybe, maybe not!

Cheers!

[fiercest tiger]

you have something like ykm! fierce, fast, rooted, internal and external do or die... hahaha just kidding :p

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[CannonFist]

EAZ : I think I know you, a fellow Vietnamese Pak Mei practitioner.

If you are who I think you are then you will remember that in our school we don't subscribe to the 5 animal theory in relation to the forms. However we do link the various parts of the "ideal" body postures to different animals. Also we have less forms than the other Vietnamese Pak Mei. No "Lin Yip Che Kwai" (Lotus leaf covers turtle), a typical Vietnamese Pak Mei/Hung Gar form :)

[Yum Cha]

Hi,
Thanks for the thread, i'm not pushing any agenda, just observing, like yourself.

Most people will agree that Cheung Lai Cheun learned 4 patterns at the temple, possibly 5. The rest of the style came from other experiences.

Feldor makes an accurate statement as well.

Higher and lower stances.... Well, that is a personal favourite topic of mine, being a big Gwai Lo. Look for the bald guy on my website.

Sifu says you train the low stances when you are young, and as you get older, you rise up, due to your physical limitations. (Taught by an old man?) LIkewise, slight fellows get pointed in one direction, whereas the stout get pointed in another, but they both come together in the end.

I've also heard people say, you train low for strong legs, but fight high. Likewise I've heard that people only fight high because they aren't strong enough to fight low...it goes around and around.

Personally, when I fight, I change. Sometimes high, then low to confuse or draw in an opponent, and to rest. Low stances have more stored energy to release. If you can't move, than the lowest, strongest stance won't serve you properly. IMHO. Kickboxers don't always know what to make of low stances and get sucked in...

Ao Qin
Cheung Lai Cheun and Lam Yew Gwai were close friends, cousins I believe, they tried their luck together as young men across Guangzhou.

My personal opinion is that Pak Mei is an overlay that can accommodate any particular style, once you understand it.

First you learn the pearls, then you learn to string the pearls, than you learn to change the string. Lung Ying, Lei Gar, Hung Gar, whatever, they are the pearls. Pak Mei is the string. Does that make sense to anybody but me?

Language is a barrier, I don't know all the Chinese sayings, poems, discriptions, etc. I can barely speak with my Sifu, so I can't offer the wisdom of the ancients, only my personal viewpoint. One thing I can tell you for fact, no tongue fu or on-line banter will teach you more than an afternoon of hard training. ;)

[Shaolin Master]

ok lets discuss :

1. What did CLC learn from Juk Fat Wan ?
2. What is the hypothetical date of existance of BM (ie based on 5 elders legend)
3. What components of the other arts did CLC incorporate?
4. What did CLC "make up" and what did he "pass on"

........

[sanjia]

Sui-fuw asks "san,then why speak for the uk pak mei?sorry if i sound abrupt"

I speak sir, for myself. However I'm certain that what I have said would not offend my teacher nor his. I was simply entereing into a forum conversation, noting my experiences, nothing more, nothing less.
I will point out though that I am not a beginner in the martial arts, I would consider myself a beginner in Pak Mei at this stage but I have been training in various systems for the last 18 years.

:-) I accept your apology.
Still you have not answered the questions sir.


Mark

[EAZ]

Yes, I do remember you as well. Nice to hear from you.

I confrim that when we discussed last, we determined together that (of interest maybe for other practicioners):
1. There are already differences within Vietnamese Pei Mei branches.
2. We both speak of animals in relation to parts of the boby; (many other schools do I think)
3. Yes, the notion of 5 animals is more developed in our lineage, however, I hope that you do not think that the whole theory of my lineage rests upon this. This is an aspect, no more. It is probably me who puts too much importance on this, not my lineage.
4. Lotus form is a clear add on in Vietnam and does not bring anything new to style and thus I was taught it but more as a formality than anything else
5. We both have "four horses charging" form, which apparently is only in Vietnam. DO you know who is responsible for integrating this form first? Also it is a very pleasant form...


Questions
a. Tang Hué Bac died at a very young age, 52 in 1956, do yu know why?
b. do you know any wooden dummy technics? (I think I have picture of Tai Chek Cam practicing against wooden dummy...)
c. do you have Ly Kinh exercices ?

All the best.

[sanjia]

AoQin: says :-
Bak Mei - less rooting - higher stance - faster Ao(and definatly fewer)techniques, more focused, more "external" More "fierce" and less compassionate. Better suited to thin, smaller body types.

Lung Ying - more powerful and rooted, gliding, not as fast, more technique, more "internal". More compassionate, less fierce ("gentle in manner, resolute in execution" - take note nonbelievers!). Better suited to heavier (yes...like me), taller body types.


I couldn't disagree more. Isn't that odd?!
There seem to me to be far more Toi Sau (sp?) techniques in Pak Mei than in Lung Ying where there are far more Chung Chui, three punch techniques. After all whats the first thing learnt in Lung Ying, Ma Bo Chung Chui - step in and continuous punching! Thats hardly 'more compassionate'.

AoQin: If as someone above mentioned, that the "trend" is to merge these two arts, then what is Bak Mei contributing to Lung Ying (I would agree that Gow Bo Toy at least is unique to Bak Mei, and an excellent contribution)?!?

That 'someone' was me and I didn't say 'trend'.
Please read the post again.
I would say that Jik Bo as well as Gou Bo Tui as well as Man Fu is unique to Pak Mei.
Merging is not quite the right word. Please check the post again sir, I am not saying whats what, just commeting on what I have seen.


Yum Cha: First you learn the pearls, then you learn to string the pearls, than you learn to change the string. Lung Ying, Lei Gar, Hung Gar, whatever, they are the pearls. Pak Mei is the string. Does that make sense to anybody but me?


That makes perfect sense to me, especially after experinec of other systems and then pearning Pak Mei, it has indeed 'strung' things together.
Good post sir.

Mark

[sui-fuw]

i understand,san wait till pak-mei can't offer anymore then say its the string cause after sip batt mor to meng fu chut lam,different universe.
hope you find what your searching for :)

[sanjia]

sui-fuw: san wait till pak-mei can't offer anymore then say its the string cause after sip batt mor to meng fu chut lam,different universe.

I'll let you know when I get there :-)

Mark

[feldor]

Kind of like cooking Tofu. It take on the flavor of whatever you cook with it... :D

[fiercest tiger]

i prefer macdonalds then tofu! :D so what time is it? mac time... :eek:

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Yum Cha]

Its nice to get some confirmation of the interpretations I have of the art. Common ground.

One point to add, in the advanced patterns, you learn different "strings."

You can't be taught, you can only learn...

Sanjia, with your experience, I suspect you'll find it an interesting journey...

SM, my two bits? Chuck Fat Wan taught CLC the 4 maybe 5 patterns we all know about.

If Pak Mei really existed, he was the teacher of the teacher of the teacher of CLC, so perhaps Mid 1700's, which is consistent with the time of the coming of the Manchus. I, personally, don't believe in the 5 elders fairytale. I think that perhaps even Pak Mei is simply an Icon for Taoist as opposed to Buddist stylists. You really want to believe in the Man, but as yet nobody can verify his existance beyond fairytale, or so I'm told. Perhaps he was the abbot of a Taoist temple? Who knows, everybody has a different story that they are sure is the real one...

What other components were integrated? Hey, I read HB Un, so I know only the common knowledge, Lei Gar, Hung, Lung Ying, etc. Which patterns are which, you got me!

Ling Jow Lin Que is Dragon, for sure.
Ng Yang is "different" more like the "4"
Sam Mun Ba Qua is "different"

Then again, each pattern is a lesson in itself, you'd expect them to be different....

There are two salutes for opening patterns. One is with the low strike (i.e. Sek Sze), the other is just the salute on both sides (i.e. Sa Mun Ba Qua), perhaps this indicates something??

What was made up, what was passed on?
Well, what he didn't learn from the monk was picked up somewhere, perhaps developed together with Lam Yew Gwai? Perhaps integrated from his extensive early training.
I dunno, what do you think? You have much stronger knowledge in this area than I, for sure.

No matter where they came from, they have become Pak Mei. Its more than the 'moves." Perhaps that's why it takes so long to learn...

[This message was edited by Yum Cha on 10-31-01 at 03:48 PM.]

[feldor]

Very well said.

[Shaolin Master]

Yum Cha, thanks for attempting to discuss.
Why would I know ?
I like your attitude and I agree with many of your comments,

ok
lets start before a bit :

Lum Yuen & Lum Haap learned from Hoi Fong (thats his nickname).
Hoi Fong taught many in the "East River" area.
Lei Ga, Lum Ga, Chu Ga, Chou Ga.....
two outstanding individuals were -
Lum Yuen to Lum Ga (Lum Yu Guai)
Lum Haap to CLC

Learned a Hakka art commonly referred to as "Sam bo toi".

Lum Yuen developed "Sup Lok Dong" from "Sam Bo Toi"
Lum Haap developed "Gau Bo Toi" from "Sam Bo Toi".

to be continued later :-) *time!, still at work*

shi chan long

[fiercest tiger]

what about the finishing salute? does that count?

;)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[FIRE HAWK]

Are you talking about people that Hoi Fong taught in the East river or kung fu styles Lei Ga,Lum Ga ,Chu Ga ,Chou Ga, what is Lum Ga and is Chou ga the same as Chow Gar Southern Mantis.I asume Chu Ga is Chu gar Southern Mantis?

[Shaolin Master]

FT, hehe:D (it does to some it seems).
firehawk, it is said that those "styles" evolve from Hoi Fong's teaching. Now before you ramble note that the surnames are just that so there are more than one style with the same name. (ie. there are at least 3 Lee ga to my knowledge, but my teacher said that he had seen 5 different ones...so there you go even more confusing)

TO CONTINUE -

the period of Hoi Fongs teaching (which originated at Fujian Shaolin (Gau Lin San theoretically) it is said, based on a form that Fujian lineages call San Jin) was around 1850-1860 AD.

CLC was injured as everyone knows when young and the doctor was none other than Lum Sek. Most would then acknowledge "Sek Si Sup Ji" from this origin (all other Sup Ji's were a derivative thereof or added later).

Sidenote -
"Jek Bo" as everyone is most likely aware was based on Gau Bo Toi and then evolved into slightly different versions but all with the same concept. (the undelying concept resides in gau bo toi, jek bo, sup lok dong ...and is sam bo toi)

Lei Ga was another influence (TBCont'd)

[Yum Cha]

Isn't the finish the same in the lower patterns throughout? I thought so, even in YKM, from memory. In the latter 4 it is different, but common to the four.

I think the salutes carry a good clue, because they don't get changed through interpretation as they are simply salutes, so to speak....

What are the salutes like in Lei Ga, Lum Ga, Chu Ga, Chou Ga and Lung Ying?

SM, thanks for the comments. While people may disagree, you have obviously done a lot of research and your opinion must always be considered.

You also know a lot of patterns, and I was hoping for your reference point on the salutes.

You reckon Gau Bo Toi came from another source (Lum Haap) than the monk Chuk Fat Wan? Interesting.... It explains the Hakka link, but goes against published history, for what little that is worth. Anybody concur, or have similar understanding?

Perhaps wrongly, I've suspected that Hakka origins and Taoist Temple origins were separate...but not exclusive of each other. I'm still learning about the Hakka people and their influence.

I'm a believer that Kung Fu travels via the Man, not the style, and that the style is the shadow of the Masters achievements.

Styles change too much over the generations. Weak styles can become strong with a masterful practitioner. Strong styles can die for want of good students or a good teacher. Popular styles can become diluted by the mediocre.

In these modern days, I reckon we can never achieve or understand the mastery of the Old Ones, Smith and Wesson took care of that. Commercial concerns have too much influence. With the exception of FT and a few others, most people have day jobs that aren't Kung Fu.

Our mastery will be of a different nature, to simply hold the style isn't enough, all the great masters added something.

and that brings us around in the circle to where we started.... :D

Thats why I honour my Sifu, and worry less about where something came from or who does which patterns than making training regularly and working as hard as I can.

sorry for losing the thread...too much tea :D

[Shaolin Master]

unfortunately salutes often change with the inheritor. (ie...with the teacher, environment and retrospect).
In our Lei Ga we practise there isn't any salute, in another I saw o'seas it is similar to Hung Gar.
How'd you know I am familiar with many patterns? I don't know that many BM as my lineage is a bit old. You guys have ten empty hand, whilst I only have six :D
I am not consumed with salutes (which have lost much of their meanings due to dilutions and needs throughout time) as much as the actual content.

[CannonFist]

The "continuos 4 horse" form was created by Tang Hue Bac (Chang Wai Bok).

The lotus form was created by Lai Kwai, not the Pak Mei Lai Kwai but by the Hung Gar Lai Kwai. There were two famous Lai Kwai in Vietnam. The Hung Gar Lai Kwai was legendary for his iron hard bridges in Vietnam. Many Pak Mei schools in Vietnam adopted this form.

I do not know how Tang Hue Bac died, will let you know if I find out.

I don't think that Tai Chek Cam had wooden dummy forms, I think its just techniques practised on the dummy.

Sorry, I do not not know what is Ly Kinh. My teacher does not use Vietnamese terms when he talks to me.

BTW, I have contact with a Pak Mei practitioner who is also from the Vietnam lineage via Tai Chek Cam. His version does stress the 5 animal theory and he does practise the lotus form also.

[Yum Cha]

So Gentlemen,
It appears we have a source for the "unique" vietnamese patterns, and an explanation of the Hakka influence on CLC. Thanks for the 'good oil' lads. Don't stop now.

Salutes, well, SM, whom I believe has a wide ranging exposure to several Shaolin MA, doesn't find a thread there worth mentioning, so they may be a "dry hole" so to speak... Then again, he is Shaolin, while the salutes may be Taoist....

I'll concur with SM's statement on Jik Bo.

There is another Vietnamese Pattern we don't do, Dan Jing, or Dan Ging, or something like that. It is mentioned in some of the HK schools, any knowledge to share on that one folks?

Another question, the well known "Sek Si Sup Ji". Often refered as the "first" pattern. YKM does Sup Ji Kuen, we do Sek Si Kuen, and the two are different. YKM does the same "Sek Si", only 4th in line.

What is "Sek Si Sup Ji?", I've heard it referenced as such elsewhere as well, is it more like Sek Si Kuen, or Sub Ji Kuen, or neither?

The YKM Sup Ji is, I'm told, taught in Chinese High Schools, the Army and other "generic" situations. Also in YKM lore, the first 3 and the last 3 are YKM, not PM. FT, can I get an "Amen?"

This leaves the heritage of Say Mun Ba Qua, Sa Mun Ba Qua, Day Sut and Ng Yang still open. Correct?

[Shaolin Master]

Sam Mun Bagua - Extension/development/alternator of Sam Mun , which was from CLC's earlier Lei Ga Practice.

Dai Sart - again from Lei Ga (but some say the later studies of Lei Ga, apparently CLC studied once and swapped on the second time)

Do u mean Ng Hang Mo or Ng Ying (by Ng Yang)?

Sek Si Sup Ji = 1 (others are mods it seems)

Note : there is Seung Geng as well as Dan Geng.
as there is Meng Fu Ha San as well as Meng Fu chut lum ....now in HK.

[sui-fuw]

yummy,what explaination is that of hakka influence?what from these knob heads that don't even practice hakka pak-mei? :rolleyes:

[sui-fuw]

keep guessing m@sturb@tor :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Yum Cha]

SM,
Ng Yang, is supposedly translated to 5 Animals, or 5 ways, probably Ng Ying?

Do you know the Vietnamese Sek Si? How different is that to Sek Si Sup Ji?

Seung Geng as well as Dan Geng, where do they come from?

Do you agree that the old way of doing the patterns is much simpler and shorter than the new ways taught Kowloon and HK?

Sui Fuw,
In my own knowledge there was a hole, amongst many, that left me wondering how a style, proportedly carried through the Taoist Monks, could also be carried by a racial/cultural group.

Were Hakka Taoist? Were the monks Hakka? The Hakka Pak Mei in Holland came from CLC, that added interest. My two senior Si Di are Hakka as well...

The explanation that the Hakka "influence" came through the earlier training of CLC in the aforementioned styles seemed to explain the relationship.

I don't think it is the same as "Hakka Pak Mei" which you explain as a separate lineage/style.

Any comment on the old way versus the new way, in terms of simplicity?

As you are reserved with information, and I respect your attitude, the conclusions I draw are for myself only, and based upon the available information, I'm not writing any books. We have our secrets too.

Perhaps that's why FT calls us the "Dark Side" ;) :D

[fiercest tiger]

usually its a secret when you dont know something ..hahahaha hmmm :D secrets dont advance ethics also i guarentee that everything we do its found in many other styles!

hold back information to students and give it when ready but to tell a students its a secret and maybe 10 years you will get it is wrong.

what do you guys think?

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

FT, agreed.

[Shaolin Master]

oh, Yum cha problem about "taoist" concept.

Juk Fat Wan was always wearing "Buddhist robes"
and the temple he resided in was Buddhist. [so I heard but what would I know].

[Shaolin Master]

Re : " in terms of simplicity?"

the old way sometimes seems simple but there are intricacies that cannot be seen (oooh secrets.nah). Though they are shorter.

Ng Ying - I think only YKM have it or at least it is not of direct CLC teaching.

Vietnam Sek Si - sorry I don't know it.CannonFist does :)

[Yum Cha]

You make an interesting point SM, confoundedly interesting....

I've seen the one picture, a painting I believe, from the HB Un book, but I wouldn't know. I'll take your word for it. That brings us back to the salute, which is decidedly different from the Buddist "hand clenching a fist" salute...

What do you know about the "Alleged" Ghong How, or Hong How temple, where CLC supposedly learned?

In Guangzhou somewhere?

RE: the intricacies in the simplicity, well, nice you noticed.... ;)

[tnwingtsun]

My dog barks..........sometimes.

This time he woke me up and I checked the forum.

Lots of good info on this thread but I'm to tired to give it a shot.

Maybe tomorrow.

I will say that Stew-Few is the Hakka version

of Rolls,if he is indeed Hakka.

He's probably a wanna-be Hakka,ok sue-fuk,

speak some Hakka talk so I can be impressed,wow,

you really got me with your secret Hakka system.

I may study Hakka and not eveen know it.

Hell,I'm neither Hakka nor Cantonese.

Who gives a fu(k! :rolleyes:

[fiercest tiger]

sup jee also known as sui sup jee= small cross fist
sek see sup jee aslo known as dai sup jee kuen= large cross fist.

ykm calls it sup jee and #4 sek see, in america its sui sup jee and dai sup jee kuen. same forms mind you but different names! cross fist form also known as ying jow sup jee kol da kuen! :cool:

dan ging sheurn ging from vietnam i believe, new versions of bak mei forms.

ykm 1st three forms are mixed hung gar and bak mei from har hon hung. last 3 are the real ykm yau kung sup batt serng toy jerng an internal system within itself! :)

the rest are from clc bak mei old versions simple and direct! ;)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[sui-fuw]

serects are of western language and their terms don't exsist in the east :)
if you ask the right question then you get answer,but be warned it may not be a satisfied answer[the notion of"i want it and i want it now"]


tn,impress you i thought i had by not listening to your verbal diahoria :D :D :D :D :D
so you study both w/c and p/m wow you must move like a donkey :D :D :D

[This message was edited by sui-fuw on 11-02-01 at 03:27 AM.]

[CLOUD ONE]

Why don't you charge money for the answer!!!
The 'gwai-lo' are easily mislead but hey it's only a hobby to them.
Forgot to mention 'ging' cannot be brought! ;)

[sanjia]

Sui Fuw : Let me try this again, Who are you? What do you teach/train and where? Where are you from?

Mark

[sui-fuw]

:D :D :D :D :D :D

cloud lets have some fun,yeah?

[fiercest tiger]

you know we cant have fun on KFO! you gonna send me an email so i can send you something? no its not a virus or a death threat..lol :rolleyes:

i have one question, do you still train and what part of training do you like best?

cya :D

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Ginger Fist]

Sui Fuw : Let me try this again, Who are you?

he's a sack of sh*t (p)ussy hakka boy with no balls and no k.f., just like he's admitted in past posts.

What do you teach/train and where?

he trains jerking off in his bedroom. check his posts, he has a thing for (a)ssholes & not just becuz he is 1 :)

Where are you from?

he's from his dead dragon face mommies nasty hakka (p)ussy. she shot out a load of after birth and called it sui-fuw :)

hakka got nothing, always guest, never host. bak mei isn't the string or the pearl, nothing but empty oyster shell & stinks like sh*t, just like hakka honey pot boys :)

[CLOUD ONE]

;) :D :D :D :D

[sui-fuw]

me thinks so too :D :D :D

[sui-fuw]

not yet,e-mail cloud like you said.

cloud do you mind?

i'm still un-sure :)


or post it on the forum,or don't you want anyone else to see?if so i understand.

[fiercest tiger]

sorry i wont send you it now, i understand you dont want to give me your person details!

your loss :(

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[meltdawn]

"Now Now 'Mistress' "

Keep dreaming, Cloud Fuw. Only one of me there be.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi
www.lungyingjingjung.com (http://www.lungyingjingjung.com)

[CLOUD ONE]

I've missed you. How have you been?
I am sorry for being harsh on you I hope that you don't take it personally!!!
Question for you- do you have the characteristics of 'back of a tiger' 'shoulders of a panther' 'belly of a dragon' 'legs of a horse' in LUNG YING?
If so how do you practice these?
I am not trolling but have a genuine question.
This also goes to the 'floor'

[sui-fuw]

sorry f.t i don't have the confidence thats all.i hope your school gets to be a great school good luck and i hope to meet you some day.

see ya s.w :)

[EAZ]

Very interesting, thank you very much.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CannonFist:

I do not know how Tang Hue Bac died, will let you know if I find out.

Please do, I would like to know.

BTW, I have contact with a Pak Mei practitioner who is also from the Vietnam lineage via Tai Chek Cam. His version does stress the 5 animal theory and he does practise the lotus form also.[/quote]


Is it possible for me to contact him as well?

[EAZ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yum Cha:
SM,
Ng Yang, is supposedly translated to 5 Animals, or 5 ways, probably Ng Ying?

Do you know the Vietnamese Sek Si? How different is that to Sek Si Sup Ji?

:D[/quote]

Just a word:

Ng Ying: in VN, this is called 5 elements forms.

Sek Si
I visited a student of a student of Li Man Tak (5th gen apparently)(forgive poor pronouciation), HK lineage. Their form had exactely the same number of movements. Remarkable for the fact that we counted together 5 generations of people between us since CLC, without any known contact between our branches.

The only thing was, once again: their version is done virtually standing up, the hand movements are simplified and they are very closed at all times.


Hoope this helps.

[Yum Cha]

Thanks for the good oil, historically speaking FT and SM, Gentlemen and Scholars.

Yes, the Buddist Robes are accurate, including the robes CLC wears in the Book, but not the robes of Pak Mei, but then, did he ever exist? oh boy...

Sifu addressed this for me.

EAZ, where does Ng Ying fit into your system?

Secrets, Sui Fuw makes a good point, the language doesn't really serve us here. They are not secrets, per the traditional English, they are different.

There are different kinds:

The ones that you have to discover yourself to understand them. Language only makes them unclear and takes you away from the quality of the lesson.

i.e. You can't teach a young runner to move onto marathon distance, they either want it, and find it, or they choose another distance.

Lessons - things you can't be taught until you know something else already. They may be things you already know, but just don't realise or apply. The eventual lesson focuses you and takes you to a new level. A reward, a milestone.

i.e. You don't teach a baby in swimming lessons learning to dog paddle the intricicies of a flip turn, nothing secret about a flip turn, just not the right time.

Advantages - techniques or components you don't want other stylists to see, because it enables them to develop a counter-technique

You don't talk about family business with strangers do you? ;) Our Pak Mei has things you just don't name, show or talk about with people outside your circle. That is what I am taught by my Sifu, and one of the very few things he asks of me for his teaching.

Don't forget FT, I trained many years under Cheung Leung too... ;)

[Yum Cha]

Sifu says, "Do it and any pak mei practitioner will know you for a brother."

Thanks for the help guys, I've been a bit confused with the YKM and PM names, and the names from other lineages. Sek Si, Sub Chi. FT filled in a big blank, with little and big versions...

EAZ, you have confirmed that the HK and VN versions are same, and I know the VN and our Guangzhou versions are the same.

What about you Yanks, do you know this pattern too? Where does it fit in?

Hakka boys?

As for the tall or deep stances, well, have we covered that sufficiently EAZ?

[fiercest tiger]

yes i know you did learn for a few years, thats true!

although years after you have been learning with seng sifu my sifu taught higher level information and he was more open to ykm theories and principles. some of us trained at sifu's house at ryde, i also use to travel there during the week to train of a morning with him. also my travelling to and from china and hong kong helped me with my ykm training!

what im saying is i learnt differently as he got older and i also understood my kung fu as i got better and older! you have to agree with me that all training we did in the old days was the same ol same ol! after bai shi we also learnt different again at his house.

so what are you saying about master leung cheung?

:confused:

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[fiercest tiger]

lohan tik gar sar, whats your translation?

buddhist monk takes off robe, cant be done in a daoist robe? WHY??? Lets see who knows!! ;)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Yum Cha]

FT, I know well your history with Leung Cheung. No debate here.

I was only saying Leung Cheung had secrets too...and you had to earn them from him.

Don't you agree??

:D

[Yum Cha]

Pardon my ignorance, thats the move with the arms both outstretched standing upright?

Correct?

Isn't there some story about how a monk doesn't take off his own robe?

I got no idea....

[fiercest tiger]

sorry to snap at ya bro, but im kinda feed up with the attitude here on kfo! lol its getting to me again!! hahahaha

i think what my student was trying to say about gradings is regardless if its a belt or no belt grading you should be graded on your knowledge practical and theories. not ive finished this form does that look alright, can i now learn mung fu chut lum? know what i mean?

anyways sorry about the snap!

yes my sifu held back alot of info, but what can a gwa lo do? go to hongkong and guangzhou like i did! hehehe

ill see about the answers for my question maybe the hakka connection can give the best answer to this? maybe not! :D :p :eek:

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[CLOUD ONE]

Hey boys should you be playing SNAP?
How about HAPPY FAMILIES?

[fiercest tiger]

i prefer strip poker :p

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[EAZ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yum Cha:
Sifu says, "Do it [sek Si] and any pak mei practitioner will know you for a brother."

EAZ, you have confirmed that the HK and VN versions are same, and I know the VN and our Guangzhou versions are the same.

What about you Yanks, do you know this pattern too? Where does it fit in?

As for the tall or deep stances, well, have we covered that sufficiently EAZ?[/quote]


(First to answer your previous question 5 elements form is taught after becoming master. As I am not in this category, I cannot say more)

Agree that Sek Si is the official Pei Mei passport amongst schools.

Yes we have successfully gone over the stance issue, I think we've gotten around the subject as far as we can, without getting into more complex related issues such as:

- why do some schools have simplified forms and some complex forms ? (I think this is related to stance issue personnally)

[feldor]

Is not a Daoist robe 1 piece, making it impossible to preform crossing and splitting out of? ;)

Peace.
Charles

[Yum Cha]

THATS IT!

Har Gau and Fung Jow next time we meet!

;) :D :D :D

[Yum Cha]

Thanks for the confirmations. :D

[sanjia]

Yum Cha says :Agree that Sek Si is the official Pei Mei passport amongst schools

Oh well I'm out then, unless someone wants to tell me what Sek Si is. :-)

Mark

[fiercest tiger]

correct, i believe you have spoken to someone for that answer ;) yes or no? hahaha

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[feldor]

Actually, I remember from my original Daoist training in Temple tai Chi. 8 slooowwww, but great years.

Very traditional, boring by amererican or "new age" standards, but VERY effective though. :cool:

Do I get a Cookie??? :D :D :D :D :D

Charles :)

[feldor]

bad spelling day.....need morning tea..... You ever try Cucucha Twig tea?

charles

[fiercest tiger]

how about OREO'S the american cookies, can i have one too?

later :D

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[feldor]

I'll email you the double stuff kind... :D :D :D

Charles

[Yum Cha]

HEY FT!

You can get Oreo's here sometimes, but only in 6 packs at the petrol stations with 7/11s.

Coles carries them on-and-off too...

Like we need some! LOL!

Now, I'd kill for a butterfinger or payday!


Goes great with Tit Gum Yum...

[fiercest tiger]

yeah ive been eating oreo's for the last week and a half with my american student..lol the guy lives off them. whats it called the SAD AKA standard american diet!! ;)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Buby]

Sifu,

Tell me this isn't true. I don't know if I can relocate to Oz now. :D I'm not sure if I would be able to live without my treats. I know you guys have Reases buttercups. Please say yes!

How about GOYA products? You know us Puerto Ricans need our GOYA to live a happy, healthy, productive life. If not I'm going to have to find away to get these products. How about arroz Canilla, sazon, sofrito and last but least adobo? We like to adobo the chicken!

I don't know! Maybe I can get my brother to send me a box of goodies every month or so. **** this ain't gonna be easy :D

So what do guys have as snacks? Joeyfingers, koalacups, or maybe dingosticks!!! LOL

**** sifu you should have told me this before. I'm gonna send ya some goodies with the next package I send you....and noooo, there will not be no anthrax included. ;)

Bro Kyle, don't worry buddy, I got you! Theres no need for cold turkey. I'll send you some oreos too :D


Take care,

Buby

Yo Dogs ya bes chill
Cause I flip like sifu Gary and his Yau Kung Mun click, wit two kicks and three pheonix fists
Trust dukes
your gonna split from the ging running through the wrist

[This message was edited by Buby on 11-08-01 at 05:55 AM.]

[BIU JI]

Serious Buby you can order Kangaroo steaks at some places and even seen they serve kangaroo balls at a restaurant in Sth Australia. Know how much you're looking forward to that hmmm yummy !!

[Buby]

No thanks bud! I draw the line at eating nut sacks, just not my thing. You can have mine. :D And no I'm not talking about mine personally, I'm saving those for my kungfu wonder girl. ;)

So bro. how training going? Is it getting hot out there?
It's getting colder and windier out here. Sh*t the other day was brink(freezing) out here.

Anyway train hard bro. and I hope you get to make it out here next year.

take care,

Buby

Yo Dogs ya bes chill
Cause I flip like sifu Gary and his Yau Kung Mun click, wit two kicks and three pheonix fists
Trust dukes
your gonna split from the ging running through the wrist.