gaining strength without it showing

[lordabu]

perhaps the title doesnt do the subject justice.

What im asking, is, is there ways of excerising, where you gain muscle strength but at the same time DON'T show it in your muscles.

I quite honestly hate huge biceps etc.. i want to know ways where i can build especially arm strength without developing large muscles in doing so.

I DON'T do weights so please dont suggest them, and i dont do any excersices that require objects other than myself. ATM i do pushups, reps here and there, it seems to be building my strength rather than my muscles (Which is good), and often i will go in the pushup position and hold myself for as long as i can at the lowest position without touching the floor, again it hasnt had an effect on my body shape.

I want to know 1) if what im doing will eventually lead to much larger looking muscles (in which case ill stop)
2) are there any otehr excersises (mainly for the upper body), that will increase my strength WITHOUT increasing the overall size of my muscles significantly

Thx for help

Lordabu

[Ford Prefect]

Sure. Heavy weights, low reps, often, but not to failure. Will explain it further if other guys don't pipe in with it. ;)

[Merryprankster]

Well, if you don't do weights, you're screwed. Have a nice day. Progressive resistance (NOT progressive repetitions) make you stronger.

Enjoy.

(Try sandbags)

[Ford Prefect]

Heh. Didn't see the no weights stipulation. MP is right. There is only so much you can do without weights. Eventually you will need some sort of progressive resistance to get stronger. Until then you can do one-legged squats and one-arm push-ups & pull-ups. You can keep elevating your feet higher and higher for the one-arm push-ups until you are doing one-arm handstand push-ups. You will eventually need weights to pregress though. There are ways to weight train without gaining size. Good luck.

[IronFist]

Watch out dude! What you're doing will make you HUGE!!!!! Haha, no, I'm kidding. Don't worry, you really can't build any substantial size with only pushups and stuff. I mean, you can get some size, but it's really only noticible if you're naturally skinny. Don't expect to look like Arnold, though.

I'm not saying you want to look like a bodybuilder, but why are you so opposed to size? When most people get a little size and definition they start thinking "hey, I look pretty cool." Hehe. Who would you like to look like? Bruce Lee?

Anyway, if you want to get strong without gaining size, then low reps and high weights are the way to go. Low numbers of sets, too, like two sets per exercise. But only do core exercises, such as bench press, squat, deadlift, pullups. That kind of stuff. If you keep the low reps high weights thing but you do bench, then dumbell flies, then triceps presses, the triceps pulldows, then shoulder presses, you will lose it's strength building with no size effects.

If you are really interested in this (getting strong without getting big), get a book called "Power to the People" by Pavel Tsatsouline. Using his methods I have set multiple new personal records in bench and deadlift and weighted pullups without putting on any weight at all.

IronFist

[IronFist]

Oops, I didn't see the no weights thing either.

Go to www.maxalding.plus.com and check out some of the old books there on old school strength training. Be weary, some are awesome, but some might be bad.

You should find cool stuff there like variations on one armed pushups, etc...

Btw, try one legged squats (weightless) if you haven't yet.

With no weights I would say one arm pushups, pullups, and one legged squats. You might gain a little size from the pushups, but nothing major. Probably not more than 1 inch on your chest if you are a beginner, less if you are used to doing pushups. But either way, it's hard to not get a pump when doing pushups. Just remember that a pump is temporary size brought on from increased blood flow to a certain muscle, and is not an actual increase in muscle size.

IronFist

[lordabu]

hey now to explain myself.

the reason i dont like weights, is because i have seen, read and heard that they are not good for you. They can seriously mess up the body in later life. Plus our treasured ancestors never used weights to develop their bodies, so why should we?

I have a bit of tone already, but i dont want to go above it. I dont want to look anything like a body builder, and i dont want huge biceps.

Bruce lee, was a man i both respected yet disliked. I never liked that he had muscles, it goes against traditional martial arts. You will never see or hear of proper martial artists having bleeding muscles, yet he did. Most possess phenominal strength not only through the channeling of prana but also due to correct body developing, and most will not show any form of muscle. Ive always wondered how they are able to do this...

still thanks for your help so far, keep the suggestions coming..

Lordabu

[Kumkuat]

"the reason i dont like weights, is because i have seen, read and heard that they are not good for you. They can seriously mess up the body in later life. Plus our treasured ancestors never used weights to develop their bodies, so why should we? "

Where did you hear this? Besides, I bet those ancestors used a lot of heavy things.

"I have a bit of tone already, but i dont want to go above it. I dont want to look anything like a body builder, and i dont want huge biceps. "

Then don't work biceps. :) Seriously, does anyone know how hard it is to gain muscle naturally? I mean, 10lbs a year would be considered good right?


"Bruce lee, was a man i both respected yet disliked. I never liked that he had muscles, it goes against traditional martial arts. You will never see or hear of proper martial artists having bleeding muscles, yet he did. Most possess phenominal strength not only through the channeling of prana but also due to correct body developing, and most will not show any form of muscle. Ive always wondered how they are able to do this... "


Everyone has muscles, how would people move without them? Okay, so they weren't ripped like bruce lee. It's probably becaseu Bruce had a low bodyfat %. Also, Aikido founder Moreihei Ueshiba was 5 feet tall and weighed 180 lbs. Ueshiba worked with heavier than normal farm tools to condition himself.

If you really hate growing muscle, I suggest you find a good I mean a very good internal arts teacher. I'm talking about the best such as Chen Xiao Wang, Zhu Tian Cai, et al types. That way, you'll learn a different way of getting strength rather than weight training. In fact, you wouldn't be doing weight training at all in that until the later years wear you'll have to shake poles, swing kwan daos around. Oh yeah, you will develope muscles around weird places like your dantien area and legs though.

[IronFist]

Oh boy :)

(warning, this reply might seem sarcastic or mean, but don't take it that way... i'm just very apprehensive right now so it's coming out in my response :) )

the reason i dont like weights, is because i have seen, read and heard that they are not good for you.

Hmm, I've read that steroids cause cancer, but that doesn't mean it's true.

They can seriously mess up the body in later life.

They can seriously mess up the body right now if you drop a heavy one on your head :)

Plus our treasured ancestors never used weights to develop their bodies, so why should we?

Do you mean kung fu ancestors? How about iron rings or 108lb kwan daos? How about all the training they do in the movies where they carry big buckets of water long distances? The reason they used buckets of water is because they didn't have dumbells :)

I have a bit of tone already, but i dont want to go above it. I dont want to look anything like a body builder, and i dont want huge biceps.

Don't worry about getting big. Most people don't even have the genetic potential to get big in the first place. Your tone is because of low bodyfat.

Bruce lee, was a man i both respected yet disliked. I never liked that he had muscles, it goes against traditional martial arts.

Uh... having [developed] muscles is against traditional martial arts? I'd rather "have muscles" than look like one of these fat ass mcdojo blackbelts.

Listen, it's like this. If you develop muscles, and your bodyfat is low enough, you will see them. If you develop muscles, and you have a high bodyfat percentage, you will not see them. If you have no muscles AND a low bodyfat percentage, you will look like a twig.

You will never see or hear of proper martial artists having bleeding muscles, yet he did.

Bleeding muscles? Can you clarify? Do you just mean like big, visible muscles? Have a look a sifu Allen. This guy has huge muscles and he's pretty "traditional" from what I hear.

The reason Bruce Lee's muscles were so visible is because he had a very low bodyfat percentage. In fact, I would say that his level of bodyfat was unhealthily low... his muscles were not "big" by any stretch of the imagination, they were just very visible because of his low bodyfat.

Kumkuat said It's probably becaseu Bruce had a low bodyfat %.

That's absolutely correct :)

He also said: Then don't work biceps

Yeah, but don't neglect them to the point where they become a weak link. If you're going to work out one muscle you might as well work out everything. Just don't do bicep exercises for mass and you'll be ok.

inic said:
think u've watch matrix or anime too much. theres no physical way to get a lot stronger without gaining size... it is true though that strength is the DENSITY of the muscle, NOT SIZE! which explains why a little guy like me uses same weights as someone twice his size.

I think you're on the right track here... if you are a total beginner any workout you do will put on some mass... however, once you get to a point you will not gain any more size or weight but your strength will continue to improve. Note, however, that this point is far below being considered "big"

they excercised 24/7 and were probably in better shape than most people today... they couldnt get instant dinners or sit and watch the tele. they were all strong, but still had the body to show it!

Yeah, people from then were probably in better physical shape due to their lifestyle, but we have better food and nutrition and medicine. Most of them probably had athletic bodies, except for the people who had fat genes.

Finally, to anyone worried about getting "too big" from lifting weights, I doubt you eat enough to get big anyway, so stop complaining :D

[ /rant ]

Sorry, I told you I was in a crazy mood. Hope no one took offence.

IronFist

[lordabu]

=p point taken :)

[Qi dup]

I think I'm in the same crazy mood as ironfist, so i'm going to try and not say much here. I'm kind of in a ****y mood, sorry to inic if I sounded like a ***** in his thread. Anyway, lordabu, There are ways to acomplish what you want. there is alway a way. I suggest you take a look at a book called, "Dynamic Strength," by Harry Wong. It's a pretty interesting program. No weights involved. The bigest downside is that it take a long time to get into. give it a try if you want, and let me know if you have any questions.

[Qi dup]

It's only like 7-10 dollars if I remember correctly.

[WCJoe]

Weights = good.
Periodization training is a great way to increase strength without gaining too much bulk. Check out IronMag.com for a periodization workout. And also, I say why always stick to the 'old' ways of training? The new ones are there for a reason, its because they are better. In this case change is good. Most martial artists train in an archaic fashion, don't limit yourself by doing this.

[IronFist]

Qi dup. I've seen that book. I thought dynamic tension would ultimately build size. But my basis for thinking that is Stone Warrior, which is the only dynamic tension program I've ever been exposed to/done.

Wait a sec, I didn't get huge on Stone Warrior. Oh wait a sec again, my diet sucked when I was doing that because I didn't know anything about eating for size.

I wonder if I did Stone Warrior again, knowing what I know now, how much different my results would be?

IronFist

[ged]

for improving strength with existing muscles, i second the dynamic tension

[Qi dup]

Hmmm, It's a good point you bring up about diet. Doing the Dynamic Power system I didn't gain much in size, however my diet sucked as well. you brought out that low reps and high weight is the way to go to gain strength and not a lot of size. I agree with you there. That is close to what you will do on the dynamic strength set up. I'll have to think about this one a little bit. I don't know, what do you think Ironfist? nutrition will deffinatly play a roll in strenth training....

Are you going to try the Stone Warrior set up again? I've actually kept up with the dynamic strength excersises a little bit, but not as much as I probably could be. Lifting weights is a lot easier to be enthusiastic about. The dynamic strength set up says to do it every other day. Personaly I tend not to work the same muscles that hard 3-4 times a week. But as far as gaining strength and not much size, I don't know, maybe that would be better.

[IronFist]

Diet and strength are related, you are right. But they're not related as closely as diet and size are.

For example, it's possible to get much stronger on a moderate, average diet. However, you will NOT get much bigger on that same diet, even if you do workout for mass.

Basically, when I was on Stone Warrior I was eating enough for a sedentary person. Furthermore, I'm an ectomorph anyway so I have to eat extra anyway :)

I wonder how Stone Warrior would work on a drug free bodybuilder's diet for mass (4-5000+ calories a day including 1g protein per pound of bodyweight)?

However, I think that Stone Warrior + Creatine would probably send you the hospital for dehydration.

IronFist

[WarriorX]

The strength of a muscle is directly proportional to the cross sectional area of activated muscle fibres in the muscle body, the magic word there is activated, as most people only normally have nerve endings going to about 50-60% of the fibres, the others sort of lie dormant. Most people tend to notice a fairly decent increase in strength when the first start training, this is due to an adaptation called motor end plate proliferation, in other words more and more fibres will be activated by the same nervous signal.

Once this is complete (90-100% activation rate), the only way to get stronger is to get bigger, and this is pretty much down to genetics and determination in training.

What are you aiming to acheive with the strength increases?, is it just a general thing or do you think you have a particular weakness that need to be corrected.

If it's any help, I've been lifting fairly regularly for about 3 years now, with decent increases in strength and definition, but have only put on 2 cm to a flexed upper arm circumfrence, gaining muscle is a long and hard road, something that would be all but impossible to do by accident.

Neil

[IronFist]

Originally posted by WarriorX

If it's any help, I've been lifting fairly regularly for about 3 years now, with decent increases in strength and definition, but have only put on 2 cm to a flexed upper arm circumfrence, gaining muscle is a long and hard road, something that would be all but impossible to do by accident.


It sounds like you're training more for strength than for size. 2 cm on an arm in your first 3 years is not very good from a bodybuilding perspective, but you've probably gotten stronger than you would have had you done bodybuilding for the last 3 years.

Make sense?

What does your workout look like? Just curious.

IronFist

[Qi dup]

Good points as always Ironfist.

I wonder how Stone Warrior would work on a drug free bodybuilder's diet for mass (4-5000+ calories a day including 1g protein per pound of bodyweight)?

That's a good question. From what I understand Stone Warrior is pretty tough. I'm really curious as to what the Stone Warrior routine involves. I don't want to steal this thread however. I really have a hard time eating that many calories in a day. I dont know how those BB's do it. Of coarse, I've only ever really tried it once or twice. I have a lot of question on this sort of thing but I'll save them for another time.

However, I think that Stone Warrior + Creatine would probably send you the hospital for dehydration.

Just out of curiosity, are you talking creatine with loading, or just regular doses?

Thanks for the reply's Ironfist, how do you know so much about all of this? Did you play any college sports?

[WarriorX]

Iron Fist,

I vary my routines fairly regularly, sometimes I'll do high weight low reps, fatigue at about 3 or 4, other times really drop the weight and just do as many reps as I can. I normally try to do 3 or 4 body parts per routine, 2 exercises per body part, otherwise the routine takes forever to complete, plus 1 day doing whole body exercises like clean and press etc.

While I've not gained a huge amount of size, my body fat has dropped to less than 12%, and having to use much heavier weight on the heavy days, my 1 rep max for bench press is well over my body weight, when I started I could only manage about 40 Kg.

The other thing that has changed significantly is my somatotype, the ratio of roundness-muscle-lean body type, it used to be a fairly normal muscle component and slightly round, now the round component has virtually gone and the muscular component is off the normal chart used to plot the results. Its not much use from a physiological point of view, but it is an interesting way to keep track of physical changes other than just weight and BF%

Neil

[IronFist]

I'm really curious as to what the Stone Warrior routine involves

Just imagine some martial moves from a form, done really slowly and with maximal tension. Most of the 21 are like that, with martial application. A couple have questionable "direct" martial application, but still build good power, and 1 of the 21 is strictly internal.

I really have a hard time eating that many calories in a day. I dont know how those BB's do it.

Cuz all they do is eat. Eat and sit around. They can't go running or anything, that would burn off calories. Eating so much is also part of the reason they feel like **** and aren't healthy people.

Just out of curiosity, are you talking creatine with loading, or just regular doses?

I've only used creatine once, and it was after a 4 month break from training (lifting, not SW), and I only used it because I was píssed that I had taken a 4 month break and wanted to get back where I was very quickly. I can't say whether it helped or not, but I didn't load it because loading is a waste of money.

Thanks for the reply's Ironfist, how do you know so much about all of this? Did you play any college sports?

I'm in college now, and no I don't play any sports there. The only team sport I really like is hockey, and I haven't played that since high school. My main athletic interests (obviously) are MA and physical culture. I know what I know from talking to the right people, doing research (note: reading muscle magazines is not research, neither is reading EAS ads. haha), and from experience. In fact, I would say if you want to learn about how the body works, stay away from exercise-related books unless you want to learn psuedo-physiology, like how to work your "upper pecs" and other bullshít. Instead, check out books on anatomy or the physiology of motion or other fun subjects.

WarriorX, sorry I don't understand kg's and I forgot the conversion to lbs :( You can never go wrong giving your bench (or any lift, for that matter) in terms of percentage of your bodyweight. So for example, if you weigh 150lbs and can bench 200lbs, you can bench 133% of your bodyweight. Just divide the amount you can bench by your weight. The units don't matter.

IronFist

[type01]

lordabu

im a bit of a training fanatic myself but i dont really like wieghts but your routines do sound interesting. in my experimentation with wieghts i found it a lot harder to gain strenght in proper proportion to size and goin to the gym is expensive!!!!

but currently im on a push up routine which is quite good since im poor and cant afford the gym and i havent gained much size but strenght is very good i f want to make it harder i just do the push ups slower or do more like an extra hundered.

ironfist & warriorX
would you guys happen to know how to work the muscle that just sits above the solarplex inbetween the pecs and abs. i was told to do inclined push ups against the wall but im not sure it works that muscle

[Sean the Black]

I work at a beef plant, we have these things we call split saws that wiegh 180lbs and w have to change them out when they go bad ( bearings go out, moter burns up, ect) we usualy have to use a hoist to get them off of the bench or use two people to lift them ( they are about 4' long and most of the wieght is one end so its realy awkward) anyway one day the hoist wasnt working and my boss (6'4", 260 lbs, lifts wieghts like a mad man) was sruggleing ith ith it when another mechanic (5'10", 145lbs,skinny sob) came over, grabbed the saw slung it over his shoulder and started accross the shop like it was nothing!:eek:
The moral of this story?
You can get amazing strength with out size.....if the guy still worked there I would ask him how he did it, I am more than a little curious myself

[Kumkuat]

Originally posted by type01
lordabu

ironfist & warriorX
would you guys happen to know how to work the muscle that just sits above the solarplex inbetween the pecs and abs. i was told to do inclined push ups against the wall but im not sure it works that muscle


There is another muscle between the pecs and abs?

[IronFist]

Between pecs and abs? Do you mean the serratus?

IronFist

[Kumkuat]

isn't the serratus more to the side?

[WarriorX]

Type01

The pecs pretty much cover the chest, and then the rectus abominus covers the abs, from either side the serratus come in and then overlap with the external obliques, together they form a pretty much continuous muscle bed as the tendons to their origins and insertions ovelap, there are a few smaller muscle, but these are involved with control of the diaphragm and breathing rather than the movement of limbs. Can't really think of any other muscle group in that area, could the exercise you've been given have been to target a different area of one of the larger muscle groups, like the difference between a flat bench press and an incline bench?

Neil

[IronFist]

Kumkuat, yes, it is more to the side but I have no idea what muscle he's talking about so it was just a guess.

WarriorX, find an anatomical diagram and get the name of the muscle you're talking about.

IronFist

[looking_up]

I agree with the poster who suggested studying with an internal
master. You will get stronger from head to toe, without too much
bulking up (legs and midsection will get a little bigger). Muscles
can only last for so long, and there must be an explanation for
the incredible strength of skinny old men...think tendons...

If you are serious, look into zhanzhuang training:

"The Way of Energy" by Lam, Kam Chuen

And of course, find a teacher.

[WarriorX]

Ok, I've checked through a few anatomy text books to try and find the correct muscle names, and the only ones that match the description that Type01 gave seems to be either the Transversus thoracis, origin on the sternum and xiphoid process, insertion on the 2nd to 6th costal cartilages, contraction causes a decrease in the diameter of the thorax, the transversus abdominus, several points of origin around the 7th to 12th rib, inserting on the xiphoid process and the linea alba, and possibly the higher external abdominal obliques, origins 5th and 6th ribs and inserting in the rectus sheath.

The only problem with this is that none of the above are used in a push up motion, so as I said before is it possible that the exercise is just to target a larger muscle from a different angle?

Neil

[type01]

thanx warriorX

i have also looked at some anatomy text books and your one seems to be better but yes the muscles in the area you described are the ones i was told to excersise that region do inclined push ups against the wall or standing push ups inclined against the wall but i was wondering is there a better excersise????

[dedalus]

I didn't read the rest of the thread carefully, but yoga doesn't seem to have come up yet. I myself have trained in Iyengar yoga, and there's nothing else I've met that has improved my strength and balance so dramatically. Yoga practitioners look strong and lean, but rarely bulky.

Anyone who's in doubt should go try a class and see how long they last :p