2 versions of beng bu

[Tainan Mantis]

I recently had the chance to exchange kung fu with Mantis 108.
We taught each other our beng bu solo and partner forms.

My beng bu is similar to the HK 7* if you look at the moves in a book, though the performance of the form looks quite different. also it has 5 more moves.

The TJPM form is a little shorter than the HK 7* version. It is qite different, but immediately recognizable by 7* people as the same form.

The strange thing is the partner versions are totally different.
Techniques that are the same are
-sticking elbow
-turning elbow
-hook kick
-7* stance waist chop

All the other techniques in the form that look the same actually have different applications.
TJPM has a special affection for chie zhou or cutting elbow. This is also noticed in this beng bu form.
One move of 7* beng bu that I didn't like had a totally different application in TJPM. I'll save the details for later.

The biggest difference was the way the partners stick together.
In my version we stay together from start to finish and incorporate every move of the form. That includes the final mantis posture which wasn't included in WHF's book on the 2 man form.

In the TJPM version the people break up and come together again at least 4 times. This means that not all the moves in the solo form are in the partner form. But don't worry as they are included in the series called Taidzu Duanda which is a specialty of the TJPM method.

I have learned several types of traditional 2 man form that follows this break up and come together logic. I think of it as a skeletal framework for applying moves not in the form(usually we save this method for the 2 man drills that aren't in the forms).
For example; after the first break up we should go to section 2 but instead we go to section 3 or maybe some other technique not in the form.

Wah Lum people will be interested to know that this form has several similarities to their beng bu that WL beng bu doesn't share with 7*.

[mantis108]

I am curious to which is the move in 7* Beng Bu you don't like but saw a different application in TJPM?

I believe you gave a very accurate and insightful report on the forms.

This reminded me of the methodology discussion awhile ago on the KFO. I believe you showed me the Changquan method, which I think is also known as Ying Ching Pau Fa. On the other hand, I showed you the Duan Da method (Taizu Duan Da). They both have their place in the training. May be that's why Josi Wong Long crosstrained. ;)

It would seem that Ying Ching Pau Fa will bring a thorough understanding of the forms as they are intented. One can easily draw out particualr move within the form at will plus that you can work up a rhythm before executing a "kill". This would be great for sparring purposes and drilling techniques non stop.

Taizu Duan Da points to alternative applications and changes. Techniques are less obvious a lot of times. But lots of food for thoughts while training with them. It has less of a sparring oppotunity that is quite different from the Ying Ching Pau Fa.

BTW, I do see there are lots of standup grappling and takedown moves in the 7* Beng Bu. Thanks for showing all that to me.

Almost forgot to mention, there is also Pai Da (iron body training) feel to your version of 7* Beng Bu which I find quite interesting.

Regards,

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

In the 7* version the partner does a double jump kick in the 2nd road followed by a punch. In Taiji version no kick, only punch. I liked it without the kick.

The paida of the form comes from Zhang Dekuei of mimen PM. I think he is one of the few people who learned and taught who to do paida while doing the form.

After talking to Ilya and his theory of drills it would indicate that your version is more ancient. There is no proof at this point, but I can't help wondering at what point did this 2 man form change from one way to the other.

Did they both grow from a common root to what they are today?
Or is one unchanged and the other changed?

Or a little of both?

[Joe Mantis]

Tainan

Maybe I should have started anothe thread 'cause this doesn' t address Beng bu.

[mantis108]

Thanks Tainan. It is very interesting to see the 2 different approaches to 2 men forms. Stylistic differences are bounded to happen. It is both the doing of nature and human. That's just the nature of art. :)

As I am reviewing the materials that are shared, I am becoming more and more aware of how important methodolgies is to training martial arts. Remeber how we even have different approaches to simple drill - one step 3 punches (Yi Bu San Tsui) ?

Researching Praying Mantis system(s) along would truly be a life time study.

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Getting back to the technique I didn't like so much in 7* beng bu.

In the 2nd road the partner uses his right leg to kick his opponents left kidney, then does a left jump kick to the opponents mid-section or face.

It is said that a good kick is like hitting someone with a baseball bat. So it would seem that the kicks are okay.

Problem is that in Paida of my teachers school he use a bat a lot bigger and heavier than a baseball bat to deliver full power strikes to the students body.

My grand teacher laughed at my puny gut punches as I punched him in the gut full power. This is when he was 70.

A Shaolin monk let me do flying sidekicks on his chest while he stood there.

Most people can't take a good body kick, but following the iron body pai da those techniques of kicking the body lose value as the opponent is better able to withstand the blows.

Furthermore, it is hard to kick the kidney(not impossible).

On the other hand the jump kick in the 3rd road of beng bu done by the beng bu side of the form is doing a groin kick that is very difficult to block.

In fact, it seems to me that all the rest of the techniques of the form have applications in the 2 man set that iron body can't be of much help in.

So in the TJPM format the same spot where 7* does a jump kick the TJPM version just does a punch to which the partner does an elbow break.

So, here is a fictional story to show a hypothesis.

Wang Lang taught this movement and said," It doesn't matter if the opponent punches or kicks, you just move like this..."

So in some schools the taught one of Wang Lang's ideas and in another school another idea.

So learning from other schools seems to be a good thing.

Since there are some interesting threads on being a sifu, how should a sifu react when their student wants to meet and learn from other masters?

Would it be different if he was teaching cooking?

[spiralstair]

Tough question, and it can only be answered in a case by case way.

Some martial students are 'collectors' and treat forms, techniques and styles as if they are clothing, something to 'wear' to make themselves appear a certain way. They often have pictures of themselves 'posing' with a weapon or in a stance, but the picture won't be about the art, it will really be about how they 'look' doing it. This kind of student is NOT served by studying with multiple teachers, for he's just collecting and needs to learn to go deeper, not broader.

Some martial students are 'researchers' and seek knowlege as a means to deepen their understanding of what they know and where they are going. These students are helped by exposure to other methods/styles and a unthreatened sifu should let them go, since he'll get back a better person.

How to seperate the two? Only time and behavior are the indicators of which is which. A person's words are next to useless.